Cornering Courage

jtemple · 02-26-2009, 10:41 AM

So, the riding season is fast approaching. I just finished up the last of my winter maintenance last night.

I got to thinking about cornering.

In my area, there are no real tight twisties, just big sweeping curves. I'd have to push damn close to 100mph to have any hope of dragging a knee, I think. I'm not opposed to reaching those speeds (these are very low traffic, farmland type areas).

I wear full leathers. I stay in my lane, I only pass other vehicles when it's safe, etc.

I have these dreams of really pushing the limits, dragging knees, hanging way off the bike, blah blah blah. But, I live on a budget (yeah, like everyone else) and have a family. A wreck would be pretty hard on my family and our pocketbook. Not to mention the speeds I'd have to reach to do that out here. I'd love to do track days, but those are also out of reach, financially.

On to the question: How do you know when you start to push the limits of your tires' grip? I'm riding on Pilot Power 2CTs this season. Is the edge of your grip really sudden and startling, or does it come on fairly gradually? I'm a little afraid to find that spot, considering how fast I'd have to be going to do so. If it's a noticeable controlled loss of traction, I can deal with it. I just don't want my wheels suddenly washing out from under me at those kinds of speeds.

The only tires I've felt slip on me are OEM tires on both my SV650 and my ZX-10R. I had Pilot Powers on my SV650 and took the chicken strips down to about 1/8" - 1/4" or so, and never had any slipping issues.

Let's talk cornering!

Trip · 02-26-2009, 10:54 AM

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.

neebelung · 02-26-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.

I agree. Someone once told me "When I see a guy with NO chicken strips on his street tires, I know he's pushing it too hard for the street. Save it for the track."

azoomm · 02-26-2009, 11:00 AM

Your tires* will always exceed your own abilities.

**this means tires in good condition made for the type of riding you are referring to with all the blah blah blah taken into account. [/small print]

jtemple · 02-26-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.

I will do track days, just as soon as I can.

I guess I'm just kind of paranoid and need to learn to trust my tires.

smileyman · 02-26-2009, 11:19 AM

Crashing sucks. Do NOT try and find your tires adhesion limits on track or highway unless you are prepared to fall down and pay the piper!!!

Next you can get on track, knee down, and use your tires tread up to the edge without getting over your tires adhesion limits. Big hairy concept here but there is a difference between riding at great lean angles and actually using up 100% of the grip a modern tire can give you.

I have seen lots of tires scrubbed to the edge but the riders lap times are 10-12 secinds off the pace. The experts are using all the lean angle AND pushing the tire to the limit where it will slide while leaned over. Just a bit don't wanna run off line or scrub off speed but just to the point where you know your bike will not corner any harder for sliding out.

To get to that point you have to ride hard and often and be willing to get hurt, ruin a bike, maybe cost your self alot of $$. When Commitment is huge so are the risks.

Last do not attempt to find this on the highway. You go from moderate risk to definite disaster. Not many people ride outside the lines and recover quickly, some not at all.

Archren · 02-26-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smileyman

Crashing sucks. Do NOT try and find your tires adhesion limits on track or highway unless you are prepared to fall down and pay the piper!!!

Next you can get on track, knee down, and use your tires tread up to the edge without getting over your tires adhesion limits. Big hairy concept here but there is a difference between riding at great lean angles and actually using up 100% of the grip a modern tire can give you.

I have seen lots of tires scrubbed to the edge but the riders lap times are 10-12 secinds off the pace. The experts are using all the lean angle AND pushing the tire to the limit where it will slide while leaned over. Just a bit don't wanna run off line or scrub off speed but just to the point where you know your bike will not corner any harder for sliding out.

To get to that point you have to ride hard and often and be willing to get hurt, ruin a bike, maybe cost your self alot of $$. When Commitment is huge so are the risks.

Last do not attempt to find this on the highway. You go from moderate risk to definite disaster. Not many people ride outside the lines and recover quickly, some not at all.

That about sums it up right there.

No Worries · 02-26-2009, 11:40 AM

Luckily, Nebraska is right next to Colorado. First you should come out west and take a Total Control class where they teach you how to corner correctly: http://www.t3rg.com/. Then I'll take you on some roads where you can put your knee down at 15 mph. The hard part will be getting you to go back to Nebraska afterward.

Porkchop · 02-26-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtemple

On to the question: How do you know when you start to push the limits of your tires' grip? I'm riding on Pilot Power 2CTs this season. Is the edge of your grip really sudden and startling, or does it come on fairly gradually? I'm a little afraid to find that spot, considering how fast I'd have to be going to do so. If it's a noticeable controlled loss of traction, I can deal with it. I just don't want my wheels suddenly washing out from under me at those kinds of speeds.

Is it just me or are we not answering his question. I must be taking it a different way? I took it more along the lines of cornering feel, rather than tire limits.

Sorry, cant help you there either.... im a noob.

OreoGaborio · 02-26-2009, 11:53 AM

hehe, I'll try to answer the question a little bit

Some tires are different than others... some give you LOTS of warning, some very little... In either case you need to spend lots of time near that limit to be able to listen to them and learn the signs. With rear tire traction loss you'll feel the back end begin to walk out on you... with front tire traction loss it'll feel like the bike suddenly has power steering and the front end feels kind of "numb".

I'd be willing to bet that after a crash almost all of your typical street riders, the vast majority of track day enthusiasts and even some racers will say (at LEAST to themselves) "Man, the tires just gave right out with hardly any warning at all!". It takes a LOT of training to be able to push a tire right up TO the limit, RECOGNIZE that you're at the limit and KEEP it there at that limit without going OVER that limit.

Even at the level that I'm at, I still have plenty of trouble riding right at the limit & keeping it there consistently even though I've developed a pretty good feel for knowing when I'm there. The biggest reason why I haven't crashed much when riding as hard as I do is because I've developed the ability to stay very relaxed and smooth when the tires are slipping.

Needless to say I STRONGLY suggest you don't try to develop that skill on the street. Instead of practicing outright speed, practice being smooth & relaxed cuz THAT'S what will do the most to keep you out of trouble once you get to that limit of traction.... heck, you might not even realize you were there until a split second after it happened and you regained traction.

Hope that helps... lemme know if you're still kinda fuzzy on it & want me to attempt to clear anything up

02-26-2009, 10:41 AM	#1
jtemple Geek Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Papillion, Nebraska Moto: 2011 Husqvarna TE630 Posts: 1,437	Cornering Courage So, the riding season is fast approaching. I just finished up the last of my winter maintenance last night. I got to thinking about cornering. In my area, there are no real tight twisties, just big sweeping curves. I'd have to push damn close to 100mph to have any hope of dragging a knee, I think. I'm not opposed to reaching those speeds (these are very low traffic, farmland type areas). I wear full leathers. I stay in my lane, I only pass other vehicles when it's safe, etc. I have these dreams of really pushing the limits, dragging knees, hanging way off the bike, blah blah blah. But, I live on a budget (yeah, like everyone else) and have a family. A wreck would be pretty hard on my family and our pocketbook. Not to mention the speeds I'd have to reach to do that out here. I'd love to do track days, but those are also out of reach, financially. On to the question: How do you know when you start to push the limits of your tires' grip? I'm riding on Pilot Power 2CTs this season. Is the edge of your grip really sudden and startling, or does it come on fairly gradually? I'm a little afraid to find that spot, considering how fast I'd have to be going to do so. If it's a noticeable controlled loss of traction, I can deal with it. I just don't want my wheels suddenly washing out from under me at those kinds of speeds. The only tires I've felt slip on me are OEM tires on both my SV650 and my ZX-10R. I had Pilot Powers on my SV650 and took the chicken strips down to about 1/8" - 1/4" or so, and never had any slipping issues. Let's talk cornering!

02-26-2009, 11:00 AM	#4
azoomm moderator chick Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hill Country TX Moto: Pasta Rockets Posts: 8,917	Your tires* will always exceed your own abilities. *this means tires in good condition made for the type of riding you are referring to with all the blah blah blah taken into account. [/small print] __________________ We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "smart"?* Come Play at the Track!! http://www.elitetrackdays.com

02-26-2009, 11:19 AM	#6
smileyman White Trash Hero Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NW Arkansas Moto: Buell 1125R Porco Rosso Edition Posts: 4,895	Crashing sucks. Do NOT try and find your tires adhesion limits on track or highway unless you are prepared to fall down and pay the piper!!! Next you can get on track, knee down, and use your tires tread up to the edge without getting over your tires adhesion limits. Big hairy concept here but there is a difference between riding at great lean angles and actually using up 100% of the grip a modern tire can give you. I have seen lots of tires scrubbed to the edge but the riders lap times are 10-12 secinds off the pace. The experts are using all the lean angle AND pushing the tire to the limit where it will slide while leaned over. Just a bit don't wanna run off line or scrub off speed but just to the point where you know your bike will not corner any harder for sliding out. To get to that point you have to ride hard and often and be willing to get hurt, ruin a bike, maybe cost your self alot of $$. When Commitment is huge so are the risks. Last do not attempt to find this on the highway. You go from moderate risk to definite disaster. Not many people ride outside the lines and recover quickly, some not at all. __________________ Arkriders.com To be the best you must first be willing to risk the worst!

02-26-2009, 11:53 AM	#10
OreoGaborio Tony's Crack Pusher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Topsfield MA Moto: 2003 Aprilia Tuono (street/track days), 2006 SV650 (race) Posts: 428	hehe, I'll try to answer the question a little bit Some tires are different than others... some give you LOTS of warning, some very little... In either case you need to spend lots of time near that limit to be able to listen to them and learn the signs. With rear tire traction loss you'll feel the back end begin to walk out on you... with front tire traction loss it'll feel like the bike suddenly has power steering and the front end feels kind of "numb". I'd be willing to bet that after a crash almost all of your typical street riders, the vast majority of track day enthusiasts and even some racers will say (at LEAST to themselves) "Man, the tires just gave right out with hardly any warning at all!". It takes a LOT of training to be able to push a tire right up TO the limit, RECOGNIZE that you're at the limit and KEEP it there at that limit without going OVER that limit. Even at the level that I'm at, I still have plenty of trouble riding right at the limit & keeping it there consistently even though I've developed a pretty good feel for knowing when I'm there. The biggest reason why I haven't crashed much when riding as hard as I do is because I've developed the ability to stay very relaxed and smooth when the tires are slipping. Needless to say I STRONGLY suggest you don't try to develop that skill on the street. Instead of practicing outright speed, practice being smooth & relaxed cuz THAT'S what will do the most to keep you out of trouble once you get to that limit of traction.... heck, you might not even realize you were there until a split second after it happened and you regained traction. Hope that helps... lemme know if you're still kinda fuzzy on it & want me to attempt to clear anything up __________________ -Pete LRRS/CCS#187 ECK-Racing, Ironstone Ventures, Tony's Track Days, SV Racer Pine Motorparts/PBE Specialists \| Phoenix Graphics \| Woodcraft \| Moon Performance \| RJ's Motorsport \| Motorcycles of Manchester \| MTAG-Pirelli The Garage: '03 Tuono (Hooligan bike :naughty) \| '06 SV650 (race) Last edited by OreoGaborio; 02-26-2009 at 11:58 AM..

02-26-2009, 11:40 AM	#8
No Worries Keyboard Racer Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mile High City Moto: Old Superbikes Posts: 1,016	Luckily, Nebraska is right next to Colorado. First you should come out west and take a Total Control class where they teach you how to corner correctly: http://www.t3rg.com/. Then I'll take you on some roads where you can put your knee down at 15 mph. The hard part will be getting you to go back to Nebraska afterward.