Bling vs Bang

[the chi]

As far as modding goes, I have to say I am perfectly happy with my bike bone stock. Obviously the engineers knew what they were doing when they built it and I see no reason to spend a fortune "fixing" something that doesnt need it in the first place. I find that's primarily a male fixation...BUT after having my suspension adjusted for me personally a few years ago, I can say that I do appreciate the ride better when it's specified for me, and not your average size male of at least 150 lbs. I get it reset every so often, and I can definitely tell the difference between my suspension set up and that of another bike. The CBR I'm scooting around with lately is most definitely NOT at a good adjustment for me. Feels like I'm riding a dirtbike.

[smileyman]

I find it amusing in observing a talented rider that can go fast on a stock bike, with little but a nod to preload.

Obviously when your racing every little nuance counts and is something you want working for you, but I see skilled riders push OEM goods to the limits and realize that no matter what performance envelope you have built into your machine, if you cant access it skill wise, why install it to begin with?

Case in point being the expert coaches at the Pridmore Star School riding stock GSXR600 and SV 650s while teaching some students on prepped suspensions.

One caveat tho, It is easier for a student rider to learn how a bike performs and is suppose to give feedback on a well set up machine. As through the proper feedback and inputs he deals with it is easier for him to learn about how fast really is supposed to feel

[Homeslice]

Originally Posted by smileyman

Obviously when your racing every little nuance counts and is something you want working for you, but I see skilled riders push OEM goods to the limits and realize that no matter what performance envelope you have built into your machine, if you cant access it skill wise, why install it to begin with?

Just because a pro racer can go faster on a stock bike, doesn't mean an amateur won't improve his times if he installs an aftermarket suspension.

Bottom line is, it's all about making someone more confident.......Who cares what other people do.

[smileyman]

Valid point! That's why I added the caveat. Your right, who cares what other folks do, it's all about dialing in your ride for your style and application.
The thread had become a little watered done from Bling v. Bang. If everyone rode only just what they could use we'd all have Hyosung 250s.

[Rangerscott]

He probably wanted his HP to be over....

[itgirl]

Originally Posted by OTB

I spend a lot of time talking to people who want to know which shock, tuning system, pipe, leathers or fork kit is "best". I talk to a lot more who want their bikes tuned for the "most power".

My response is always the same: I ask a litany of questions about themselves physically, about their riding experience, about their use of the bike and about what they mean by "best" or "most". Sometimes, people get impatient and interrupt me and ask what this all has to do with the initial question.

One thing I've learned is that EVERYBODY is different, and so are their wants and needs.

Another thing I've learned is that every manufacturer of bikes, performance parts and gear has a different philosophy about about what constitutes better performance and takes different paths to get there.

The last thing I've learned is that "performance" is achieved through a series of compromises; that physics is physics and you can't fool mother nature and you don't get a free ride. What I mean by that is that for every decision to take a particular performance path, you need to give up something, be it longevity, ease of service, weight, comfort, expense, convenience.....yada yada yada.... and that that's ok, as long as everybody understands what the tradeoffs are.

One of the dangers in building "high performance" machinery is that you, the builder get all done with the project as you see it and the customer comes back with, "It's nice, BUT....".

Example.

I had a fellow last week who wanted his track (not RACE) bike tuned for maximum top end power, didn't CARE about the cost of "Race Gas" (another topic all together), just whatever it took with the stock motor to get the best top end. Wanted us to use a couple very expensive different blends of race gas to get the "BEST" top end on the dyno. That process involved many (like 6-8) hours of dyno testing (expensive!).

For his bike, we settled on VP MR12 (high octane, very detonation resistant on lean mixtures and lots of advance, plus, it made the same horsepower as another blend but the bike ran cooler). Gave him the results and he paid to have another couple of hours done to get a custom map done for all throttle positions in all gears..another couple of hours on the dyno.

He came to pick the bike up and the tech was finishing draining and flushing his fuel system (did I mention that this stuff is highly corrosive to fuel fittings and the like, and that if left in the bike more than a few days will trash fuel pumps, injectors , ect? It even says so in big lettering on the cans of fuel he brought us to do the testing).

Anyway, after he finished getting the paperwork, dyno charts and map copies (we copy the maps for our customers in case theer is a glitch and they are out of town and need in remapped to the ecu or fuel unit)he wanted to know why were draining the tank, I told him about the need to not store the bike with race gas in it.

He blew a cork.

"I have to do this every time I'm finished running the bike?"

Yep, only if you don't want to be rebuilding the system every other week.

He wanted a refund, said nobody told him about the fuels' properties, didn't wanna do that and wasn't going to pay.....

Remember, he brought HIS fuel to us....but never did read the lables...just wanted MAX POWER.....

Anyway, when I explained to him that we did this work at his specific direction, and that without payment he wouldn't be using his bike that weekend, he relented.

But he wasn't happy EVEN THOUGH WE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE ASKED.







Sometimes you don't know what's important till it's gone.

Life is a series of trade offs..........do your research, ask questions.

OTB, did you explain all this to him before starting the work? i understand it is up to the individual to do research, but if i am bringing my bike to a mechanic i expect them to be able to explain things to me. after all, if i was the expert i would be doing it myself, not paying someone to do it for me. you may have done exactly what he asked, but to do it without complete explanation is slightly negligent on your part. we are simple people, you must make us understand. then if we insist on forging ahead it will be our own stupid fault if it doesn't work out.

[OTB]

Originally Posted by itgirl

OTB, did you explain all this to him before starting the work? i understand it is up to the individual to do research, but if i am bringing my bike to a mechanic i expect them to be able to explain things to me. after all, if i was the expert i would be doing it myself, not paying someone to do it for me. you may have done exactly what he asked, but to do it without complete explanation is slightly negligent on your part. we are simple people, you must make us understand. then if we insist on forging ahead it will be our own stupid fault if it doesn't work out.

Negligent? I guess by stretching the bounds of negligence to the absurd. Guy has been using race gas all summer; all he asked us to do was dyno it to find the best one and map his system for it.

I didn't sell him the gas...I didn't even recommend that he use it. He brought the gas, told me he had been using it, asked us to do the work. Told me the only thing that mattered was he wanted the most power. Period.

I guess that's why we have so many lawyers. A guy buys a five gallon can of stuff that has so many warning stickers on it you can barely find the name of it; IT COMES with an MSDS sheet stickied to it. IT SAYS IN BOLD LETTERS THAT THE STUFF IS HIGHLY CAUSTIC TO FUEL SYSTEMS: DO NOT STORE VEHICLE WITH FUEL IN SYSTEM! It gives specific directions on removing the fuel after use and flushing with regular pump gas.

I know I'm just a silly-billy, but if I just paid $26.00 a gallon (YES! MR12 is $130 for 5 gallon can) for super-duper racing pooper I'd wanna know a little bit about it....wouldn't you?


My whole initial reason for the thread was based on making assumptions and how a lot of deciding on the "best" course of action needs to be based on asking questions, and based on the answer to those questions, recommending a reasonable course of action to achieve results.

If somebody tells you, "I only care about achieving "A". This is what I have, this is what I want you to do". ; then, when the results are in, he says; "Ya, but what about "B"?, I don't want "B"." What do you do?

Another example:

A fellow came to us with his VTX1800; he brought with him a high-compression kit, pipes, a high-lift cam and a competition clutch kit (extra friction plate, a stiffer basket and stiffer springs)... asked us to install them. We did so, gave him back the bike.

He brought it back a week later, said the bike "wasn't fast enough, I expected it to be a lot faster, and the clutch was too stiff. Fix the bike to make it faster and fix the clutch or give me a refund".

I explained to him that

A. A competition clutch is stiff for a reason; it's to keep the clutch from slipping under full throttle loads, it never was meant for street cruising.

B. We have no way of knowing what the baseline hp/torque of the bike was; we offered the initial baseline dyno run before the work began, but his response was that it was "Too expensive" ($35!...he had $3000 tied up in parts!). We had dynoed it after to properly map it, but it wouldn't tell us if it had gone up or down. The bike was running properly (no hesitation, no flat spots no running issues). Ass-dyno numbers don't count.

C. As we hadn't sold him the parts, we couldn't warrant either the performance of the parts not their suitability for his application.

After doing a lot of research and calls to the companies that built the parts, we found out that in order to make the kind of power he was expecting with the mods he made, he would need to get a high-flow intake (no longer made, co. went out of business), bigger throttle bodies, decked heads and oversize valves, plus some crank work to keep the thing from coming apart. A LOT more money.

On top of that, after doing another teardown and checking part numbers, the cam company had sent the guy the wrong cam. We ended up machining a cam gear and re-degreeing it to work better.

So who is at fault... the clowns that sold the guy the go-fast pieces without telling the guy the whole story, the cam company for screwing up, or the owner, for not doing the research before he dropped $6k on a bike that was barely worth that at the time he did the work.

I gotta tell you, in the eyes of the customer, WE were at fault, even though the bike was assembled and tuned properly.

We helped the guy out, I did the research this guy should have done before he spent the money, we cut him a deal on the second teardown and rebuild; done right with flowed heads and a new intake system it made another 30 rw HP.

A week after he got the bike back, it was stolen.

The insurance company paid him off, he bought a new bike (a Warrior) and now we're modding THAT one for him.........with better expectations.....







So, after all that, who is responsible for making an informed decision?













The guy with the wallet, IMHO.

[itgirl]

i still stand by the fact that the person i am paying should be a voice of reason. if i choose to ignore that, then the fault lies on me. just sayin'...

[OTB]

Originally Posted by itgirl

i still stand by the fact that the person i am paying should be a voice of reason. if i choose to ignore that, then the fault lies on me. just sayin'...

...and I agree. If you're paying somebody for RACE GAS... Then they oughta clue you in to what you are buying and the suitability of it for your intended use........


He were paying us to map his bike based on his intended use.....

Go back to my initial post....

[OTB]

By the same token, we DO ask folks to fill out an information sheet when they come in for any type of tuning, be it suspension, dyno or engine performance work. Besides the regular info, we ask them what they are looking to achieve, what is most and least important, why they chose the modification that they did, ect.

A LOT of shops won't install stuff they haven't sold to the person for just this reason; they don't know what the person has or has not been told (or if the claims are even TRUE or not). We are sensitive to people's pocketbooks; a lot of folks buy stuff on the internetz and then bring it to us for installation. Many folks get the wrong parts, or buy something inappropriate for the intended use and then get pissed. Is it REALLY my fault because I am the bringer of bad news?

In suspensions, we sell Race Tech, Ohlins, Penske and Elka; we sell Dynotune and Bazazz for FMS; we sell Leo Vince, Yosh, and custom race pipes; we work on all the Japanese bikes, new and old, Truimphs KTM's and Ducs, street bikes, dirtbikes, racebikes and cruisers. We fabricate just about anything someone could need. All with just 4 guys.

We are VERY careful about what we sell; most of our business has been by word of mouth through the racer's grapevine. Most of our clients come back time after time.

And most of the problems we encounter are because people don't tell us what they REALLY expect, or interrupt when I'm doing my information gathering and tell me "I just want you to put it on; I'm not interested in that other stuff."

OK...you're the boss.

I will tell you that one of the big issues we've had is with people's expectations from what they may have read; ie. motorcycle mags and websites.

All the big hoopla over the BMW S1000RR in the press has lead to some VERY po'd folks. Motorcyclist touted the "190HP BMW"....(they don't tell you on the cover it's crank HP). So we get folks who want their BMW's dyno'd and then get pissed cause it only makes 174 at the RW. Even when you explain to them beforehand that RW hp is different from crank hp, and that every dyno will give a different reading and that humidity and temperature can have a 2-3% difference on actual raw numbers.

And don't get me going about the guys who come back a week later with $3600 Akropovic full race systems and a Bazazz unit they bought from some internet site based on some "expert" on one of the boards who tells them they should see 195-198 hp with THIS downloaded map... only to find out we can only coax another 4 hp out of the bike on pump gas, and that even with a custom map he might only see another 1-1.5 peak hp by leaning it out a bunch more.

Don't believe everything you read on the internetz........