Teaching newbies to ride.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Amorok

What specific European courses are you referring to? Is there a company or curriculum you can refer me to? Give me some referencesa and not only will I see whether it can be integrated into my course, I'll send it up to MSF.

As for it being a "parking lot" course, yes it is. Low speed practice is safer for beginners, and it's a proven fact that low-speed practice will improve higher-speed skill. The point of the BRC/ERC is not to teach someone how to roar down the twisties, wear out a trail on a dirt bike or destroy the track, the point is to teach someone how to get on their bike and ride to work or somewhere else. The point of MSF is to teach people how to ride safely in the most common situations such as commuting or a weekend cruise. If you want to go out and ride like a bat out of hell on a sport bike then MSF won't help you accomplish that. It doesn't mean the course doesn't meet anyone's needs, just that it doesn't meet your needs.

MSF won't go this far. It's a tiered system and they bring you off the parking lot. There is classroom and on road training out of the parking lot on the road. It's a lot longer and more involved. It's not like the USA, there isn't one accepted school. There are hundreds of them out there. Just search for some.

[Amorok]

OK, I understand your issue a little more now. But think of this - MSF is designed for a beginning rider with limited experience to be able to go to a class and get some instruction. MSF is a tiered system but we aren't taking you out on the road. I'm not sure what insurance is like in Europe but there isn't a way for me to get a course covered if I'm taking students who are assumed to have limited experience/skill out on the road. The point of MSF is to allow newbs to make their mistakes in a low-speed, traffic-free environment. If you took the course as an experienced rider you'd be one of the first I've known who didn't get anything out of the course, but it's possible that you're so good, that your skills are so advanced that the course has nothing to offer you. If that's the case then I can totally understand your hatred and disdain for a course that has helped thousands of less experienced riders learn and improve their skills. And I can totally understand how my personal safety, improving my skillset, and getting an insurance for the rest of my riding career is pales in comparison to a few hundred bucks. After all, it's much smarter to spend that few hundred bucks to buy gear to protect myself in case I go down rather than spend it on training that might help me not go down. And the phrase that some training is better than nothing? Totally not true, if it's not up to a certain standard then it's a waste of time.

Sorry for the flame, but the motorcycle safety program at out base gets almost no attention. Me and the one other instructor at Keesler kill ourselves teaching out in the heat and chill, get sunburns and headaches to help people be safer. All the while my supervisor bitches every time I go to teach, wondering why none of the other instructors on base can teach instead of me (cause I've never wondered that myself) hell, threatening to make me take leave to teach. I'm starting weekend classes every month this summer, all to try to make people a little safer. It pisses me off that the one thing I can do to help gets slammed by people who's opinion I respect. Probably should have avoided reading this thread.

[Trip]

MSF is not a tiered system. It's one class/one tier. The tiered system in Europe allows you to advance through the levels of bikes and progress.

There is no progression plan in the MSF. It's here's some basic shit, now go out into the world.

The euro training courses I am referring to, does go through the noob basics and you progress to actual street riding and further beyond that. It's a true progression of skill to the point where you are qualified to ride on the road safely without needing further training where as the average rider is not ready for the street right out of MSF.

Another reason for my dislike is the level of skill of the teachers that I experienced. I don't know the skill of racer x, but I am sure it is high level. That's not the case in my class. The ridercoaches I came in contact with, weren't high level riders. Yey, they can read from a book and give basic commands. Congrats, you deserve to teach people something you can barely do yourself... Sorry, if someone I care about is going to learn to ride, I want a teacher who actually has a sufficient amount of skill in the subject.

Knowing what I know now about the area and what the ridercoaches told us in class, it makes me laugh. They were the ones that actually believe and relayed the misinformation/rumors about deals gap and they did that in class.

[Dnyce]

has anyone taken the advanced course where u bring your own bike?

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Dnyce

has anyone taken the advanced course where u bring your own bike?

It's pretty much the same exercises, but with your own bike.

[Rangerscott]

Can you bring your own bike to the regular msf?

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Rangerscott

Can you bring your own bike to the regular msf?

BRC - no, you can't ride it in the class
ERC - yes

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by RACER X

MSF you have to
1) make a fig. 8 in a box.
a) demonstrate a swerve (after exiting the fig 8), w/ a specific speed
3) quick stop from a specific speed also downshifting from 2nd to 1st
4) make it thru 2 turns w/o going outside the lines at a specific speed, slow look press and roll and technique is critiqued.

thru the test, points are being taken off for "doing it wrong", putting your foot down in the box, taking to long to stop, crossing the lines in the corner.

only way to fail automatically is touch the bike down, crash or run over an inst.

Let me rephrase...the DMV test is harder because if you touch a foot down, you fail. In the MSF class, you can score a 16 outta 20 and still pass.

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by Trip

As previously said, since you seem to have a reading problem, if I don't really care I would send them to MSF.

I'm not sure why you are raking on the MSF so much. It really is a good starter class that teaches the basic principles of motorcycling and legal guidlines within your state, doing what it is designed to do. If you are comparing the MSF to tiered European classes, then you have have no comparisoin because that isn't what the MSF is about. It sounds like you are arguing Walmart sucks because it doesn't have the tire selection like that of the Tire Rack. It's not their core buisness to sell high end tires just as the MSF's core buisness isn't to produce track riders.

I took a Harley sponsored MSF course over 3 days in Michigan. It was very well taught and I learned alot. I then took a MI state run Advanced MSF course shortly after. Learned more there as well.

The course is a beginner course which teaches motorcycle operation. I'm not understanding what you are expecting of the class. The only real experience is to just go out and ride and ask some buddies on specific questions you may have. Most people don't have the patience nor the teaching technique to instruct a new rider. Also, when a bunch other people are new to riding, the person learning feels less pressured and more relaxed to learn IMO.

[Tsunami]

Avatard, can she ride a regular bicycle?