Speaking of Buell and the AMA/DMG Roadracing Series...

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?

Honestly, on the track they would be pretty similar because you're using the work of the engine to achieve acceleration.

Now, on the street where you're likely to be in the wrong gear, the higher tq would make a world of difference.

Keep in mind though, if the hp is equal the engine would be moving the same amount of air and fuel barring slight variations such as compression and frictional losses. As for your busa analogy, the tq and length of the busa would get it off the line faster.

Keep in mind with the rolling start that advantage is taken away from the buell.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.


Talk more later. Typing on a blackberry sucks..

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Tmall

Honestly, on the track they would be pretty similar because you're using the work of the engine to achieve acceleration.

Now, on the street where you're likely to be in the wrong gear, the higher tq would make a world of difference.

Keep in mind though, if the hp is equal the engine would be moving the same amount of air and fuel barring slight variations such as compression and frictional losses. As for your busa analogy, the tq and length of the busa would get it off the line faster.

Keep in mind with the rolling start that advantage is taken away from the buell.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.


Talk more later. Typing on a blackberry sucks..

Okay but my research shows the Buell getting worse 1/4 mile times than the 600s...

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Okay but my research shows the Buell getting worse 1/4 mile times than the 600s...

Yes, those are perfect passes with pro riders. They can make advantage of the hp by launching hard.
You get on either bike and I can almost promIse you would run the better time on the buell. The tq allows for an easier launch seeing as you don't have to dump the clutch at 9000 rpm.

100% honest here. I bet I can launch my high tq low hp xb just as good if not better than your gixxer. Then you'd blow by me as I'm shifting second at 50mph.

Tq is great. But useless without revs.

[Rsv1000R]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?

Hp is a measurement of work. 160hp is more work than 130hp. But in the case of accelerating a mass, your acceleration rate is hp/weight. More hp and you'll accelerate faster, less weight and equal hp you'll accelerate faster. Trap speed is a fairly good measure of power/weight ratio, yet et can be all over the place. I'm pretty sure the Bus will trap faster than the others.

A 1000 I4 SS makes more hp than a 600 I4 SS because it makes more torque, and the 600 doesn't make enough torque at higher rpm's to match it. But if you look at say my Aprilia, it makes more torque than a 600SS, but not as much as a modern Liter I4. My bikes dyno's at ~110hp, very close to what a 600SS makes, even though it does make more torque.

[Papa_Complex]

The track tends to make a difference also. At Calabogie, for the Parts Canada season opener, we had once kid in the top 10 who was running his 600 in Superbike. I guess when you're looking at steel guardrails all the way around the circuit, it tends to moderate your use of the throttle hand.

[Rsv1000R]

Peak hp is the rpm of most breathing, peak torque is the rpm of best breathing. If you think of a single cycle at tq pk, the engine breathes in the most air. That number can be used as sort of a measure of how efficient an engine is at breathing. As soon as you go past the tk pk, the engine doesn't inhale as much air/cycle as it did at peak. But you you get more cycles. As long as the breathing doesn't drop off faster than rpm goes up, even though it's breathing less air, it does more work.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.

This use to be a real problem, But at least for the length of a race they've solved it. Now it's closing the valves(well they've solved that too, now it's engine life).

[Amber Lamps]

Hmmm okay I'm getting what you're saying. An R6 makes as much torque as my bike at 17,000 rpm but it will never make as much hp. That still doesn't explain why Buell can't take 1125 cc and make a bike worthy of the Superbike class while Ducati can with 1200cc (in fact the big complaint is that the Duc makes too much power) . Heck, Ducati campaigned a 1000cc V-Twin against same cc I4 for a while and did okay....kinda.

[Rsv1000R]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Hmmm okay I'm getting what you're saying. An R6 makes as much torque as my bike at 17,000 rpm but it will never make as much hp. That still doesn't explain why Buell can't take 1125 cc and make a bike worthy of the Superbike class while Ducati can with 1200cc (in fact the big complaint is that the Duc makes too much power) . Heck, Ducati campaigned a 1000cc V-Twin against same cc I4 for a while and did okay....kinda.

The tq pk of my bike is ~6,500, I'd guess 8 or 9,000 on your bike, and about 14,000 on the R6.

The rotax in the Buell wasn't designed for competition, simple as that. It doesn't have the radical engine geometry necessary for maximum power. And it would always have a disadvantage because of the weight of it's larger valves for a metal valve spring.

Ducati was allow to replace the bottom end with Ti Rods and Cranks, so that they could run to 14,000 with a liter twin, the desmo-valve train allowed that.

To get the extra displacement they got in the FIM, they agreed to use stock cranks and rods. And gave up some of the higher rpm they use to run (or figured out a way to get similar rpm out of stock pieces and last a race).

[marko138]

(Insert tigger's shitty response about Buell here)

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by marko138

(Insert tigger's shitty response about Buell here)

You are the anti-American.

If you were a real American, you would demand that an American sportbike step up and compete on a level playing field instead of making excuses and calling anyone who doesn't support the racing effort anti-American.