clunker truck for hybrid, NOT!

RACER X · 11-04-2009, 03:30 PM

http://www.click2houston.com/automot...64/detail.html

Pickups Mostly Traded For New Pickups

More Than 95K Of New Cars Purchased Got Less Than 20 MPG
TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer

POSTED: Wednesday, November 4, 2009
UPDATED: 2:11 pm CST November 4, 2009

AP Photo/Carlos Osorio
WASHINGTON -- The most common deals under the government's $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program, aimed at putting more fuel-efficient cars on the road, replaced old Ford or Chevrolet pickups with new ones that got only marginally better gas mileage, according to an analysis of new federal data by The Associated Press.

The single most common swap -- which occurred more than 8,200 times -- involved Ford 150 pickup owners who took advantage of a government rebate to trade their old trucks for new Ford 150s. They were 17 times more likely to buy a new F150 than, say, a Toyota Prius. The fuel economy for the new trucks ranged from 15 mpg to 17 mpg based on engine size and other factors, an improvement of just 1 mpg to 3 mpg over the clunkers.

Owners of thousands more large old Chevrolet and Dodge pickups bought new Silverado and Ram trucks, also with only barely improved mileage in the middle teens, according to AP's analysis of sales of $15.2 billion worth of vehicles at nearly 19,000 car dealerships in every state. Those deals helped the Ford 150 and Chevy Silverado -- along with Ford's Escape midsize SUV -- climb into the Top 10 most-popular vehicles purchased with the government rebates. The most common truck-for-truck and truck-for-SUV deals totaled at least $911 million.

In scores of deals, the government reported spending a total of $562,500 in rebates for new cars and trucks that got worse or the same mileage as the trade-ins -- in apparent violation of the program's requirements. The government said it is investigating those reports and said in some cases they were probably entered incorrectly by dealers or based on outdated fuel economy figures.

The new data, obtained by the AP under the Freedom of Information Act, include details of 677,081 clunker trade-ins processed by the government through Oct. 16. More than 95,000 of the new vehicles purchased under the program -- or about one in seven -- got less than 20 mpg, according to the data.

The new figures, requested four months ago by the AP, represent the first substantial outside accounting of the clunkers program, lauded by the White House and the Transportation Department for improving fuel economy, stimulating sales and taking the dirtiest vehicles off the road. The data show the average fuel economy was 15.8 mpg for the old vehicles and 24.9 for the new ones. But plenty of consumers bought relatively low-mileage trucks and SUVs with the help of government checks.

"If we're looking for the environmental story here, we're going to be disappointed," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive at Edmunds.com, an analyst firm. "It might have started out from the perspective of improving the environment, but it got detoured as a way to stimulate the economy."

Popular high-mileage commuter cars including the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus also were among the Top 10 most popular new vehicles bought under the four-week program, with 105,280 of those models sold for a total of about $2 billion.

Chris Moss of Smithtown, N.Y., traded in his 1992 white Ford 150 pickup -- "it had 5 million miles on it and needed $50,000 in repairs, if you know what I mean" -- for a new Chevrolet Malibu hybrid for his wife. When he drove his old truck to the dealership's back lot with the rest of the clunkers, "90 percent of what you saw were old 150s and Explorers," he said. Moss posted a video on YouTube of his old truck's final day, called "Rust In Peace."

The $3 billion program, known officially as the Car Allowance Rebate System, ran from July 27 to Aug. 25 and generally required that new vehicles get better mileage -- at least 22 mpg for cars and either 15 mpg or 18 mpg for trucks depending on class -- and that trade-ins get no more than 18 mpg. The trade-ins were required to be destroyed in exchange for either $3,500 or $4,500 rebates.

"The value that the customer got for a lot of these vehicles was just a gift, no question," said Scott Pundt, sales vice president for the Dorschel Group of Rochester, N.Y., the No. 4 dealership in the U.S. with 592 vehicles sold under the program. "We were appraising 220,000-mile vehicles that were really rough, and they were getting $3,500 or $4,500 for them." Four out of five old cars turned in there exceeded 100,000 miles.

Some deals raise eyebrows:

-- In at least 145 cases, mostly involving trucks, the government reported consumers traded old vehicles that got better than or the same mileage as the new vehicle they purchased. The government said it was continuing to investigate. A driver in Negaunee, Mich., traded a 1987 Suburban that got 18 mpg for $3,500 toward a new Silverado pickup that got only 15 mpg. An Indianapolis driver traded a 1985 Mercedes 190 that got 27 mpg for $3,500 toward a new Volkswagen Rabbit that got only 24 mpg. "It's possible some quirky deal slipped through the cracks," Anwyl said.

-- In at least 15 deals in nine states, owners of large pickups cashed in old trucks for between $3,500 and $4,500 toward new Hummer H3 SUVs that got only 16 mpg.

-- A driver in Arlington, Va., traded a 1999 Ford Explorer with 15 mpg in July for $3,500 toward a new $28,000 Jeep Commander that weighs about 4,700 pounds and gets 16 mpg.

-- In at least 32 deals, drivers traded older vehicles for new large trucks -- including versions of Toyota Tundras, GMC Sierras, Chevrolet Silverados, Dodge Rams and Ford F150 pickups -- that got only 14 mpg.

-- A driver in West, Texas, earned $4,500 in July in exchange for a 1989 Chevrolet Suburban SUV that got 14 mpg and bought a 2009 Suburban that weighed 5,900 pounds and got 16 mpg. Across Texas, seven of the 10 most common transactions involved drivers trading old pickups for new ones.

Car-crazy California led clunker sales with more than 76,000 trade-ins, followed by Texas with roughly 43,000 and New York with nearly 37,000. In California, the Honda Civic was the No. 1 new car and no pickups ranked higher than 18th. In New York, the Hyundai Elantra was No. 1.

The clunkers program was very good for Longo Toyota of El Monte, Calif., just east of Los Angeles, which sold more than twice as many vehicles under the program as any other dealership in the country, worth more than $30 million. That sole dealership was responsible for 1,432 sales worth nearly $6 million in clunkers rebates, mostly from its sales of 323 Toyota Camrys, 277 Corollas and 171 Priuses.

The next-best dealership was Price-Simms Inc. of Sunnyvale, Calif., with 672 sales of vehicles worth about $16.1 million, mostly from its sales of 213 Priuses and 134 Camrys.

Pundt said his dealership in Rochester advertised aggressively to consumers and operated three shifts of employees to submit claims. "We had people in here through the middle of the night, working 2 a.m. until 7 a.m.," he said. "The computer was so slow."www.click2houston.com/automotive/21521864/detail.html

Homeslice · 11-04-2009, 04:03 PM

No surprise, given that the program was crafted by Democrats, people who usually don't know much about cars

Sean · 11-04-2009, 04:06 PM

MPG is a horrible measurement. In percentage terms, these increases aren't that bad. Try gallons per mile.

http://www.efficient-mileage.com/mpg-illusion.html

karl_1052 · 11-04-2009, 04:18 PM

3mpg over the life of a truck can add up to a substantial amount.

pauldun170 · 11-04-2009, 04:40 PM

I have a few questions

1. Why didn't they print a list based on their "new supa dupa top secret data"?
2. Why is it that the data (also as of the 16th and already available in a handy dandy xls file on the cars sit http://www.cars.gov/carsreport) available to the public not the real figure?
3. Why should we believe some guy from the AP who has not provided any data or source over the data available from the cars.gov?
4. Why the refernce to the Escape as a midsize SUV when it is well known that the Hybrid version which gets close to 30mpg, is the one that has been selling like hotcakes and the FWD is whats listed on everyone list.

I have more but this article is kinda broken

Rangerscott · 11-04-2009, 09:11 PM

I read over and over that the new vehicle had to get 5mpg more than the old.

wildchild · 11-05-2009, 11:09 AM

yep I tried to do it but the new truck I wanted wasn't better then my old F150, sorry not about to give up my truck for a prius.

z06boy · 11-05-2009, 11:35 AM

I started to unload my Jeep Cherokee since it qualified but there was nothing on the list I wanted for the $$ so I kept it.

11-04-2009, 03:30 PM	#1
RACER X AMA Supersport Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Richmond, Tx Moto: '10 Tuono Factory Posts: 4,569	clunker truck for hybrid, NOT! http://www.click2houston.com/automot...64/detail.html Pickups Mostly Traded For New Pickups More Than 95K Of New Cars Purchased Got Less Than 20 MPG TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer POSTED: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 UPDATED: 2:11 pm CST November 4, 2009 AP Photo/Carlos Osorio WASHINGTON -- The most common deals under the government's $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program, aimed at putting more fuel-efficient cars on the road, replaced old Ford or Chevrolet pickups with new ones that got only marginally better gas mileage, according to an analysis of new federal data by The Associated Press. The single most common swap -- which occurred more than 8,200 times -- involved Ford 150 pickup owners who took advantage of a government rebate to trade their old trucks for new Ford 150s. They were 17 times more likely to buy a new F150 than, say, a Toyota Prius. The fuel economy for the new trucks ranged from 15 mpg to 17 mpg based on engine size and other factors, an improvement of just 1 mpg to 3 mpg over the clunkers. Owners of thousands more large old Chevrolet and Dodge pickups bought new Silverado and Ram trucks, also with only barely improved mileage in the middle teens, according to AP's analysis of sales of $15.2 billion worth of vehicles at nearly 19,000 car dealerships in every state. Those deals helped the Ford 150 and Chevy Silverado -- along with Ford's Escape midsize SUV -- climb into the Top 10 most-popular vehicles purchased with the government rebates. The most common truck-for-truck and truck-for-SUV deals totaled at least $911 million. In scores of deals, the government reported spending a total of $562,500 in rebates for new cars and trucks that got worse or the same mileage as the trade-ins -- in apparent violation of the program's requirements. The government said it is investigating those reports and said in some cases they were probably entered incorrectly by dealers or based on outdated fuel economy figures. The new data, obtained by the AP under the Freedom of Information Act, include details of 677,081 clunker trade-ins processed by the government through Oct. 16. More than 95,000 of the new vehicles purchased under the program -- or about one in seven -- got less than 20 mpg, according to the data. The new figures, requested four months ago by the AP, represent the first substantial outside accounting of the clunkers program, lauded by the White House and the Transportation Department for improving fuel economy, stimulating sales and taking the dirtiest vehicles off the road. The data show the average fuel economy was 15.8 mpg for the old vehicles and 24.9 for the new ones. But plenty of consumers bought relatively low-mileage trucks and SUVs with the help of government checks. "If we're looking for the environmental story here, we're going to be disappointed," said Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive at Edmunds.com, an analyst firm. "It might have started out from the perspective of improving the environment, but it got detoured as a way to stimulate the economy." Popular high-mileage commuter cars including the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus also were among the Top 10 most popular new vehicles bought under the four-week program, with 105,280 of those models sold for a total of about $2 billion. Chris Moss of Smithtown, N.Y., traded in his 1992 white Ford 150 pickup -- "it had 5 million miles on it and needed $50,000 in repairs, if you know what I mean" -- for a new Chevrolet Malibu hybrid for his wife. When he drove his old truck to the dealership's back lot with the rest of the clunkers, "90 percent of what you saw were old 150s and Explorers," he said. Moss posted a video on YouTube of his old truck's final day, called "Rust In Peace." The $3 billion program, known officially as the Car Allowance Rebate System, ran from July 27 to Aug. 25 and generally required that new vehicles get better mileage -- at least 22 mpg for cars and either 15 mpg or 18 mpg for trucks depending on class -- and that trade-ins get no more than 18 mpg. The trade-ins were required to be destroyed in exchange for either $3,500 or $4,500 rebates. "The value that the customer got for a lot of these vehicles was just a gift, no question," said Scott Pundt, sales vice president for the Dorschel Group of Rochester, N.Y., the No. 4 dealership in the U.S. with 592 vehicles sold under the program. "We were appraising 220,000-mile vehicles that were really rough, and they were getting $3,500 or $4,500 for them." Four out of five old cars turned in there exceeded 100,000 miles. Some deals raise eyebrows: -- In at least 145 cases, mostly involving trucks, the government reported consumers traded old vehicles that got better than or the same mileage as the new vehicle they purchased. The government said it was continuing to investigate. A driver in Negaunee, Mich., traded a 1987 Suburban that got 18 mpg for $3,500 toward a new Silverado pickup that got only 15 mpg. An Indianapolis driver traded a 1985 Mercedes 190 that got 27 mpg for $3,500 toward a new Volkswagen Rabbit that got only 24 mpg. "It's possible some quirky deal slipped through the cracks," Anwyl said. -- In at least 15 deals in nine states, owners of large pickups cashed in old trucks for between $3,500 and $4,500 toward new Hummer H3 SUVs that got only 16 mpg. -- A driver in Arlington, Va., traded a 1999 Ford Explorer with 15 mpg in July for $3,500 toward a new $28,000 Jeep Commander that weighs about 4,700 pounds and gets 16 mpg. -- In at least 32 deals, drivers traded older vehicles for new large trucks -- including versions of Toyota Tundras, GMC Sierras, Chevrolet Silverados, Dodge Rams and Ford F150 pickups -- that got only 14 mpg. -- A driver in West, Texas, earned $4,500 in July in exchange for a 1989 Chevrolet Suburban SUV that got 14 mpg and bought a 2009 Suburban that weighed 5,900 pounds and got 16 mpg. Across Texas, seven of the 10 most common transactions involved drivers trading old pickups for new ones. Car-crazy California led clunker sales with more than 76,000 trade-ins, followed by Texas with roughly 43,000 and New York with nearly 37,000. In California, the Honda Civic was the No. 1 new car and no pickups ranked higher than 18th. In New York, the Hyundai Elantra was No. 1. The clunkers program was very good for Longo Toyota of El Monte, Calif., just east of Los Angeles, which sold more than twice as many vehicles under the program as any other dealership in the country, worth more than $30 million. That sole dealership was responsible for 1,432 sales worth nearly $6 million in clunkers rebates, mostly from its sales of 323 Toyota Camrys, 277 Corollas and 171 Priuses. The next-best dealership was Price-Simms Inc. of Sunnyvale, Calif., with 672 sales of vehicles worth about $16.1 million, mostly from its sales of 213 Priuses and 134 Camrys. Pundt said his dealership in Rochester advertised aggressively to consumers and operated three shifts of employees to submit claims. "We had people in here through the middle of the night, working 2 a.m. until 7 a.m.," he said. "The computer was so slow."www.click2houston.com/automotive/21521864/detail.html __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ 2014 GROM! 181cc of FURY 2010 Aprilia Tuono Factory - SOLD 2009 SFV Gladius - SOLD 2008 Hayabusa - SOLD.

11-04-2009, 04:06 PM	#3
Sean giggity Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: socal Moto: street, sumo & dirty Posts: 1,071	MPG is a horrible measurement. In percentage terms, these increases aren't that bad. Try gallons per mile. http://www.efficient-mileage.com/mpg-illusion.html Last edited by Sean; 11-04-2009 at 04:27 PM..

11-04-2009, 04:18 PM	#4
karl_1052 sergeant hatred Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ottawa Moto: The bus Posts: 2,723	3mpg over the life of a truck can add up to a substantial amount. __________________ My wife was afraid of the dark...then she saw me naked and now she's afraid of the light.

11-04-2009, 04:03 PM	#2
Homeslice Elitist Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Moto: Gix 750 Posts: 11,351	No surprise, given that the program was crafted by Democrats, people who usually don't know much about cars

11-04-2009, 09:11 PM	#6
Rangerscott Viff6N Mutated Warrior Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Moto: '01 Honda VFR 800 & '09 ER-6N Posts: 8,704	I read over and over that the new vehicle had to get 5mpg more than the old.

11-05-2009, 11:09 AM	#7
wildchild cruiser Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: on the run Moto: '09 HD superglide, 16 Yamaha FZ 09 Posts: 2,749	yep I tried to do it but the new truck I wanted wasn't better then my old F150, sorry not about to give up my truck for a prius.

11-05-2009, 11:35 AM	#8
z06boy Letzroll Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lake Norman area, NC Moto: 07 Red R1 & 07 Blue R6 Posts: 5,265	I started to unload my Jeep Cherokee since it qualified but there was nothing on the list I wanted for the $$ so I kept it.