Vicious Pit Bulls and Kitties don't mix...

[Kaneman]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Man this is like a gun control argument... it's never going to be the dog is it? 67% out of the what, hundreds of breeds, not to mention the mixes that DON'T get called out as pits...if you're ready to say they can be wrong one way, you have to be aware that they can call the breed wrong and NOT name it a pit after an incident.

Unfortunately due to the prevailing mentality it is extremely unlikely that a Pit will be labeled as something else. However as shown by the photos there are numerous breeds that will certainly be labeled as Pits. Your assumption that Animal Control officers know how to correctly identify breed as a majority is farther off base than you know. I spend a lot of time at local shelters and it ALWAYS amazes me how little these people understand about dogs.

What's killing me, one side says it's the owner's fault when dogs are bad. Hokie is saying that her parent's dog attacks other dogs but it's not the dog's or her parent's fault. You are almost saying that it's the person who gets attacked fault, and to top it off you think that animal control officers are idiots and more that 50% incorrect in their breed identifications.

I'm not saying it is anyone's fault or pointing a finger from a perspective of blame. But it is true that many, many people who own dogs do not understand them and do not fulfill their needs. Using my own neighborhood as an example there are hundreds of dogs here...in almost every back yard. Yet you never see anyone walking them, because they don't. Most of those owners would consider their dog a "family pet" and be baffled if they developed behavioral problems.

Furthermore, in some cases it is a person's fault for being bitten by a dog. As dogs are a part of life in America the general pop should become educated on proper behavior when faced with a canine. For example, I will likely never be bitten by a stray dog on the street because I use the proper energy and body posture to ward them off without any violence. People who are fearful and run away or scream or who even try to preemptively strike the dog are likely to be bitten. There are very, very few Cujo dogs with bad wiring that are out to actively attack people.

I guess I'm confused, when a dog bites is it;

a. the owner's fault
b. the dog's fault/temperament/breed
c. the victim's fault
d. Cesar Milan's for making a bunch of suckers believe that they can own potentially dangerous animals without incident if they hold their collars a certain way.

You are always confused, and as is the standard in a Tigger filled debate you are using extreme and sarcastic examples to argue the other side down instead of engaging in an intelligent debate. Not a slam on you personally as I enjoy your posts.

Cesar's methods are real, they work and can be used to develop an extreme bond with your working canine companion. And be assured, if you own a powerful breed of working or hunting stock then they better be your working canine companion. Look at a situation as portrayed in Marley and Me. While funny on the screen, that type of ownership is likely to be behind any bites that occur...no matter what breed. A dominant dog will deal with any and all threats as a predator would, which works in nature...but not in the city. A dog who follows your lead will do exactly that without question. If your dog doesn't sit when you say sit and stay when you say stay then you have work to do.

Come on, I'm sure that we can all understand that it's a combination of a, b, and c (maybe a little of d as well ) You can't just rule out the possibility that if Hokie's parents had owned a different dog (possibly even a pit) that the situation might be different and incident-less. That if the trailer trash had owned a poodle that the baby would still have it's toes. I honestly believe that dogs have individual personalities just like people and like people different types have different strengths and characteristics, in general. Stereotypes suck BUT they rarely just get started without any reason whatsoever.

Yes, different dogs call for different methods. It is a dog owner's responsibility to recognize their dogs need and how they respond to different training stimuli. Because Hokie's parents owned a dog that developed aggression issues does not make them bad people or even bad owners because true canine behavior is not common sense. As strong working and hunting dogs have been relegated to city living our perspective on dogs has changed as a majority and only now are many people learning that their city pet requires special exercise methods and actual work in order to fulfill their "beastly" desires.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

What logic? When did I ever say that "all animal control officers make perfect identifications"? In fact, I've given you 50% wrong! That's a fuck load plus, as I've said, if you maintain that they can be wrong one way, you HAVE to agree that they might make a mistake and not identify a pit mix and call it something else.

I have no idea what you just said.

We had a wolf mix when I was a kid and the dog was great with us. I remember riding on it's back when I was little (really big dog). Killed a bunch of neighborhood dogs and bit a few kids.

I could tell you how he pulled me on my skateboard, or how we used to wrestle and he always let me win. How he woke us up when there was a fire (true story) or how he attacked some dudes that had chased me home from school.

Unfortunately, I could also tell you how we had to replace the front door because it used to be glass and the dog went through it after the mailman. He attacked my step mom when she came into my room to yell at me and he was on the bed (I kinda enjoyed that one). How a neighbor kid had to get a ton of stitches because she didn't see the dog and stepped in our yard. Or how a stupid neighbor's dog got loose one time too many and ended up with a broken neck.

I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the story of your boyhood wolf hybrid, though it seems you are helping to illustrate it is the owner and not the dog. You had a dog with a strong personality that your parents did not take proper steps to control. You were part of his pack so of course he didn't bite you and he let you win at wresting etc. However without strong leaders he also killed a bunch of dogs and bit a bunch of people. Tell me what steps were taken to control this dog and get his behavior under control? Why was he in the yard unsupervised? A dog with strong territory instincts shouldn't be left in the yard unless you expect him to protect said territory. Why was he attacking the front door and who worked to correct that behavior? Why didn't he sit on the rug and let out a few soft barks to alert you? These behaviors are not hard to achieve, but the dog can not usually do it on their own.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Or any worse...

Yea you're right we shouldn't profile ANY animals. Go ahead and pick up that rattlesnake, they're not dangerous. They're just a victim of PROFILING!!!

Dogs are the only animal that has been specifically bred as a personal companion to the human being. They are the result of genetic engineering even before we knew what genetic engineering was. They are completely unique in this aspect and can not be compared to reptiles. Unless you are sensationalizing a debate in an attempt to prove your point.

Don't you agree that some breeds of dogs are bigger than others? Some are faster? Smarter? It always gets me that positive profiling is okay but don't you dare say anything negative!!! I don't care if you have facts, they must be wrong. I don't care if you have documentation, it has to be falsified or the documentors are idiots/incompetent. I don't care if there are thousands of news stories, it's media bias. (um, even the first story?) I don't care if you have personal stories, it must have been the circumstances/owners/victims.

When did it start becoming profiling/media bias? The 10th incident? The 100th?...the 1000th?...the 10,000th?

What if I told you that I have a pet leopard and it's an AWESOME pet! It plays with my kids and is so sweet! Would you go out and get one? Why not? Oh you've heard the story about the leopard owner in New York who was mauled...- he was a bad owner and didn't assert himself as pack leader. Huh, what about the 5 year old that lost his leg? Hey he was taunting the leopard and the animal was improperly exercised and trained. It's all just a bunch of media bias and sensationalism, don't pay it any attention! Besides, those animals may just as well been panthers, cheetahs or tigers, you know how stupid animal control officers are.

Once again, you are using your own brand of sensationalism to prove a point and therefore losing the debate on your own. Leopards have not been genetically engineered for thousands of years to serve as a companion for humans. Dogs are animals, yes and they originated from wild undomesticated aminals yes...but their genetic make-up (which is unique in its ability to be manipulated) has been changed drastically since they were wild. Comparing them to completely wild animals such as rattlesnakes and leopards is absurd.

There are numerous factors that contribute to owning a well behaved and socialized dog of the working or hunting stock. Many of these factors are no longer common knowledge as these dogs are not being used as they were bred to be used. Dogs are highly adaptable and can easily be happy and satisfied in a city lifestyle if their owners are willing to learn their individual needs and take action. To make light of training methods such as those used by Cesar Milan by saying "oh well you didn't hold the collar right" is to completely miss the point of proper pack structure and also shows a bit of ignorance regarding canine behavior.

I was lucky, I grew up on a farm with working dogs and then lived in the city with my father who would've never tolerated a dog rushing the door at the mailman. I've owned everything from German Shepards to Pit Bulls to a 120lb Rottweiler to numerous working cattle dogs. Never been bitten or treated aggressively by any of them and never had them bite someone else. This is solely because my family understands how to handle strong dogs. I inherited that knowledge from my grandfather and my father and have expanded on it with the science that we have learned about dogs in the past 50 years. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have always been around well behaved dogs and doesn't take the initiative to learn. Instead when their dog develops behavior issues or bites the mailman they say, "We don't know what happened, he was a great puppy and then all the sudden he changed!" Then their once beloved family pet makes his way to the vet to get the needle. It happens everyday and I hear about it all the time.

Regarding Pit Bulls specifically the situation is even more bleak as (I have mentioned this) the typical Pit Bull owner is young and wants the dog for the tough image they are now (unfortunately) known for. They do not know the first thing about dogs and have likely never even seen a dog do real work (dogs are NOT pets, hamsters are pets. Dogs are working creatures) and don't even understand the concept of fulfilling their dogs needs. Pit Bulls are high energy and full of determination...yet many of their owners simply leave them in the back yard and in many cases chain them to a tree. This happens with other breeds as well but is more common with Pit Bulls.

The bottom line is that Pit Bulls are no different than other breeds of the Molosser ancestry yet suffer from a variety of factors that make them seem like killers to the general public.