Health Care..what do you think?

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by askmrjesus

Show me the part in the "book" where I ever said "Fuck the poor and the sick". I realize concepts of compassion and empathy are foreign to you, but a tiny little bit of decency wouldn't kill you, would it?



Do I look like a fucking Canadian to you? Am I wearing a big furry hat made of beaver pelts? No motherfucker, I am not. I can guarantee you that I don't give a shit about Canada's health care system. No offense, moose lovers, but I'm more concerned with OUR health care system at the moment....

I chuckle at alot of your posts...they make for some entertaining ish to say the least.

I think most Americans would like everyone that is here legally to have health care coverage (though most do not believe it should be free). The problem lies in how to fund it. We (Americans) understand there needs to be studied projected costs, increased doctor availability, immigration reform and individual health awareness.

So...what we now have shoved in our face is a 2037 page health care bill which very few understand and items included we probably cannot pay for. Now what? Just run with it and hope there are only 100 consitutents making it big instead of 500? What the fuck kinda plan is that? There was talk that in the bill Medicare would be lowered from 65 to 55. Not sure if that's true, but it seems to be a lead in to universal health care.

In regards to one of your comments, there is alot of truth in pooling people's money while only realizing a small increase in premiums. But, the issue with medical care in general is cost. And to think that just pooling people's money without serious regulation to drug/procedural costs is going to lower medical bills is very very naive.

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by askmrjesus

I already am, and so are you. Why is that so hard to figure out?

People are going to get sick and injured no matter what. The more of them that have insurance, the better the costs should be.

It's simple economics. The bigger the pool, the more people can piss in it, before anybody notices the smell.

JC

First off I make less than $30k so I do not pay taxes at all (not yet at least). Even with government health care, I along with the people "who can't afford" (despite I have it somehow but I also don't own a giant Plasma TV) health insurance still won't pay taxes for the healthcare because they don't make enough to pay for health insurance. They'll just have free reign to whatever they want and fuck up the system more.

To put it your way "You'll have the same amount of people pissing into the pool, except you'll be trying to fill up Lake Michigan"

It will also be the first time in US history that a US Citizen will be FORCED to pay for a good or service.

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by askmrjesus

How is that different from private industry? People sell insurance to make a profit, so you ain't gettin' all of your dollar back either way.

Actually I believe most insurance companies take the money that is pooled and invest it to make more money.

Our government takes our money, blows it, and then robs people for more money.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

Actually I believe most insurance companies take the money that is pooled and invest it to make more money.

Our government takes our money, blows it, and then robs people for more money.

I agree about the government. Look at the TARP program. It was a huge expenditure (and allowed Obama to blame Bush for a lot of the deficit), but now that some of the money is coming back (~$200 billion from what I have read) instead of using it to alleviate some of the deficit, the government can't figure out a way to blow this "windfall" fast enough.

[was92v]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

Haha. That's just retarded.

First off I'm not advocating anarchy. I believe in the role of government but a minimal role, especially on the federal level.

I also find it funny that you guys think so little of yourself that you need someone like Biden or Bush to take care of you.



Yeah, we're helpless without Big Brother.

_________________________________

Originally Posted by was92v
I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes,
no hospitals - There are plenty of private hospitals that do 10x better than any governmetn ran hospital. Want to see a government run, fuck up of a hospital? Check out Grady Hospital in Atlanta. By the way they are currently bankrupt and full of corruption

Extensive research, herein reviewed, shows that for-profit health institutions provide inferior care at inflated prices. The U.S. experience also demonstrates that market mechanisms nurture unscrupulous medical businesses and undermine medical institutions unable or unwilling to tailor care to profitability. The commercialization of care in the United States has driven up costs by diverting money to profits and by fueling a vast increase in management and financial bureaucracy, which now consumes 31 percent of total health spending. The Veterans Health Administration system--a network of government hospitals and clinics--has emerged as the leader in quality improvement and information technology, indicating the potential for public sector excellence and innovation. The poor performance of U.S. health care is directly attributable to reliance on market mechanisms and for-profit firms, and should warn other nations from this path.

Why would anyone choose to emulate the U.S. health care system? Costs per capita are about twice the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) average. Forty-seven million people are completely uninsured. Many others with insurance face high out-of-pocket costs that hinder care and bankrupt more than a million annually (1). Mortality statistics lag those of most other wealthy countries, and even for the insured, clinical outcomes and patient satisfaction are mediocre at best (2, 3).
International Journal of Health Services, Volume 38, Number 3, Pages 407-419, 2008 (c) 2008, Baywood Publishing Co., Inc. doi: 10.2190/HS.38.3.a http://baywood.com

no roads - Roads are essentially a voluntary tax. If you don't buy gasoline then you don't pay taxes for roadways. Which is a ridiculous statement in today’s world. There is nothing truly voluntary about it.

Interstates were originally set up for the US Military, a legit role of government. And most road construction is done by private contractors
Who are paid with public money.

no schools - Well those are just fuck up factories. You can go to some of the best private schools for less than a car payment. But gotta keep up with the Joneses.

Public Schools Versus Private Schools
Achievement -- Advantage
Reading -- Equal
Mathematics -- Equal
Science -- Equal
History -- Equal
SAT Math -- Private Schools
SAT Verbal -- Private Schools
College Enrollment -- Equal
Source: Center for Education Policy
To determine whether or not family involvement or background characteristics impacted the difference in academic performance between private schools and public schools, the Center for Education Policy (CEP) did a special study based on analysis of the National Educational Longitudinal Study (1988-2000). They found that there is no real difference between the academic performance given by public and private school students from the same low-income bracket and background, suggesting that family involvement has more of an impact than the school setting.
Summary of CEP Findings
• Low-income students attending public high schools performed just as well academically as low-income students attending private high schools.
• Neither private school students nor public school students with similar background characteristics were more likely to attend college.
• Young adults at age 26 who attended private school are no more likely to be engaged in civic activities than young adults who attended a public school.
• Private school graduates aren't any more satisfied with the jobs they hold at age 26 than are public school graduates.
'Contrary to popular belief, we can find no evidence that private schools actually increase student performance,' stated Jack Jennings, the president and CEO of CEP. 'Instead, it appears that private schools simply have higher percentages of students who would perform well in any environment based on their previous performance and background.'
In my experience Keeping up with the Joneses is a huge factor in putting the children in “Private School” . I don’t give a flying fuck about the Joneses, I don’t have a car payment, or a new car.
The pvt school my ex sent her Daughter to cost (me) $10,000.00 a year. Now she works part tine in a coffee shop…

No police or fire protection - Police protect innocent people from bad people. Well actually they usually just investigate a crime (legit role of government). Fire? Well i've advocated that if a tax exempt organization like a church decides not to pay property taxes, then if they catch fire, let it burn.

What you have advocated is no tax money to be spent on anything but the Military and International decorum.
Fire? Better get a 2in line and a turn out suit for that DIY Home Fire Company, oh wait, no water.


no water - Our government water is so great that we spend billions more a year buying it in a bottle from PRIVATE COMPANIES

That bottle that public tap water and sell it back to you.

electric - Your electricity almost always comes from private companies. Here in Georgia I know of Georgia Power, Jackson EMC, Walton EMC, and then various other ones.

Private Energy companies including the Southern Company, parent co of Georgia Power, have received an average of $6.1 Billion (That’s with a B) of public money every year for the past
40 years. Look it up.

sanitation - Sanitation? Again, most sanitation departments are PRIVATELY owned
Sewer and water reclamation was my thought. Refuse is a whole different subject, but think about where the private collectors make their deposits.

communications - Communications are done by private companies (I work for one), AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to name a few

I too am in communications, for 36 years. Has the gov’t been involved? Look a little deeper
And see what you find…

no Doctors or medical since a lot of the education is paid for by govt grants and govt backed loans - Most med schools I know of are private schools. I know Emory and Mercer in Atlanta and Macon are. Not sure about Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. Hopkins, Mayo, Harvard, etc are also privat. You can trust your doctor from Devry if you want

Taxpayer Support for Physician Education and Training, 1991-92
Billions of Source Dollars

Medicare $5.2
Federal research, training, and teaching $5.1
State and local governments $2.7
Total $13.0

Sources: Fitzhugh Mullan et al., "Doctors, Dollars, and Determination: Making Physician Work-Force Policy," Health Affairs Supplement (1993), p. 142; and Janice Ganem et al., "Review of U.S. Medical School Finances 1992-93," Journal of the American Medical Association 274 (1995): 724.
________________________________________
Medicare payments to hospitals represent the largest source of federal funding for medical education and training.(128) Medicare pays for physician education and training in two ways: First, hospitals receive direct payments from Medicare based on the number of full-time-equivalent residents employed at each hospital. Second, Medicare increases a hospital's diagnostic-related group payments according to an "indirect" medical education factor, based on the ratio of residents to hospital beds.(129)
The average Medicare payment to hospitals was more than $70,000 per resident for both direct and indirect education subsidies in 1992. An estimated 69,900 full-time-equivalent interns, residents, and fellows were eligible for Medicare reimbursement in 1991.(130)
Medicare paid hospitals $1.6 billion for direct medical education expenses and dispensed $3.6 billion for indirect medical education adjustments in 1992.(131) Of the total $5.2 billion that Medicare paid to hospitals for training, approximately $0.3 billion was appropriated for training nurses and allied health professionals.(132)
Medical schools and teaching hospitals receive additional federal funding from the National Institutes of Health, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Defense, and the Health Resources and Services Administration (Title VII) program. Federal funding for research, training, and teaching amounted to at least $5.1 billion in 1992.(133) That money was awarded to medical schools and affiliated hospitals in the form of grants and contracts.

There seems to be a bit of Public in that Private…

[Tmall]

Oh shit.. Is an owned required?

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by was92v

....Extensive research, herein reviewed, shows that for-profit health institutions provide inferior care at inflated prices....

Which health institutions are not for profit? A county hospital? So your extensive research find shows that county hospitals are better than the profit generating private ones? LOL

Private is always better than public when it comes to service. If it wasn't, you would go somewhere else. Crap is weeded out by starvation. It's really a nice system. The problem is that each year "we" give more control to the government which never gets taken back. So...you end up with a subsidy here and a subsidy there which turns out to be promises kept by some congressman.

...no roads - Roads are essentially a voluntary tax. If you don't buy gasoline then you don't pay taxes for roadways. Which is a ridiculous statement in today’s world. There is nothing truly voluntary about it....

Roads are paid by gasoline tax, license fees and now even property tax. Don't drive a car or own a house and it's voluntary.

[was92v]

Originally Posted by 101lifts2

Which health institutions are not for profit? A county hospital? So your extensive research find shows that county hospitals are better than the profit generating private ones? LOL

Private is always better than public when it comes to service. If it wasn't, you would go somewhere else. Crap is weeded out by starvation. It's really a nice system. The problem is that each year "we" give more control to the government which never gets taken back. So...you end up with a subsidy here and a subsidy there which turns out to be promises kept by some congressman.



Roads are paid by gasoline tax, license fees and now even property tax. Don't drive a car or own a house and it's voluntary.

There are other non-profit hospitals besides county. Most of those locally are better than the for profit hospitals. Just saying...

Don't drive a car or own a house If you don't drive a car in most of the US outside of a large city, you won't have a house to own or rent, because you can't get to a job. So yeah, in theory that would work.
This morning it was about 12 degrees here. If I voluntarily didn't drive and voluntarily didn't have a home would it be suicide when I froze to death in my sleep under a bridge or would I just be exercising my voluntary rights to not pay those taxes?
When they die under that bridge do we as a society bury or burn them at our expense or just leave em where they fall and let nature take care of it. I mean shit, why should they use my money to chuck em in the ground. I didn't volunteer to pay for it. right?

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by was92v

....Don't drive a car or own a house[/I] If you don't drive a car in most of the US outside of a large city, you won't have a house to own or rent, because you can't get to a job. So yeah, in theory that would work.
This morning it was about 12 degrees here. If I voluntarily didn't drive and voluntarily didn't have a home would it be suicide when I froze to death in my sleep under a bridge or would I just be exercising my voluntary rights to not pay those taxes?
When they die under that bridge do we as a society bury or burn them at our expense or just leave em where they fall and let nature take care of it. I mean shit, why should they use my money to chuck em in the ground. I didn't volunteer to pay for it. right?

Now you are just arguing convienence...taxi...bus??

We usually just cremate, but I guess that is the cost to just live.

[goof2]

There are a lot of non-profit hospitals, but that doesn't mean they are public hospitals. Vanderbilt, the best hospital in your area was92v (and one of the best in the country) operates as a non-profit, but I believe it is still a private hospital.