More Auto Bailout nonsense

pauldun170 · 12-10-2008, 10:53 AM

An all-American auto industry bailout?
Congress wonders whether automakers will spend bailout money in U.S.
By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
msnbc.com
updated 8:23 a.m. ET, Wed., Dec. 10, 2008

WASHINGTON - With Congress on the brink of lending $15 billion in taxpayer money to Ford, Chrysler and General Motors, some legislators are worried that those funds will end up overseas.

Congress and the White House struck a tentative deal late Tuesday night, but the plan faces substantial obstacles from Republicans.

Will Detroit's "Big Three" use the loan to buy foreign-made components or expand operations abroad?

Rep. Don Manzullo, R-Ill., whose Rockford-based district is a center of the U.S. tool and die industry, asked Ford chief executive officer Alan Mulally at last Friday’s House Financial Services Committee hearing whether he would "be buying more fasteners and tool and dies from China” to use in manufacturing Ford vehicles.

“We operate all around the world,” Mulally replied.

Manzullo asked, “Does that mean we’re going to lose more of the fastener and tool-and-die industry in the United States because you’re going to be buying that stuff from the Chinese?”

“Absolutely not,” insisted Mulally. “The plan that we presented grows our business in the United States.”

But what about U.S.-based tool-and-die firms and parts suppliers, Manzullo asked.

“Are you going to use U.S. taxpayers’ dollars to source more tool-and-die equipment and fasteners from overseas facilities for American manufacturers?”

“No,” Mulally finally replied.

Can Congress restrict bailout money?
In a draft of the auto industry loan legislation that Congress will likely vote on this week, there was a provision designed to deter the Detroit automakers from spending their money outside the United States. It would require them to report to an overseer, appointed by the president, any investment or purchase they made in excess of $25 million.

But President George W. Bush’s aides reportedly oppose that provision as micromanaging.

It isn’t clear if any “invest in America” requirement will be in the version of the bill the House and Senate will vote on.

Lawmakers in both parties want to ensure that the money lent to Detroit is spent only in the United States.

“We’ve got to make sure this money us invested in the U.S. and not outside the country,” said Sen. Jon Tester, D-Montana, a member of the Banking Committee who questioned the auto company executives at last Thursday’s hearing

Another committee member, Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., said a “spend only in the United States” provision “should be an absolute requirement. If U.S. taxpayers are putting up the money, it ought to go to benefit U.S. workers and U.S. communities.”

But since funds are fungible and the Big Three have plants in foreign countries, as well as foreign parts suppliers, it’s not clear how this requirement could be enforced.

Richard Curless, the chief technical officer of the largest machine tool company still located in the United States, MAG Industrial Automation Systems, is one witness to the damage that the Detroit Three can do by buying their components outside the United States.

Tax incentives to buy American
On Tuesday, testifying to the House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming, Curless urged Congress to pass tax incentives to nudge the Detroit automakers to buy from his firm and not from its Japanese competitors. “It is difficult to work with them because they buy cheap parts from the Far East,” he told the committee.

“I’d like to see Congress require them to buy the technology from the United States. You’re not going to change everything all at once to say ‘you can’t get anything offshore,’ but there ought to be some incentives — that’s what we’re looking for,” he said in an interview after his testimony.

MAG Industrial Automation Systems has plants in Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Kentucky, Wisconsin and California.

The company also supplies equipment to design and build Boeing aircraft and the Joint Strike Fighter built by Lockheed Martin. “We’re going to take that technology and move it to the automobile industry,” Curless said Tuesday. “Your cars in the future are going to be made of very much lighter weight composite material.”

He added that while the Detroit firms will buy from MAG Industrial’s Japanese competitors, the Japanese car manufacturers “are not going to buy from us. Japan is very nationalistic in what they do.”

MAG Industrial has two plants in China which, he said, make “mostly machine tools for the China market.”

Peter Morici, professor of international business in the University of Maryland business school, said after his testimony to the House committee Tuesday that if Congress creates subsidies for Detroit firms to build the next generation of more fuel-efficient vehicles, it ought to require that the research and development and initial production be done in the United States.

“Whatever is developed here the first production runs should be done here,” he said.

Although European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has raised the prospect he could file a complaint under World Trade Organization rules about the rescue package, Morici said, “You only have a problem in the WTO if someone can prove a harm. I don’t think anybody will be able to prove a harm.”
© 2008 msnbc.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28138287/

Krabill · 12-10-2008, 02:55 PM

Rider · 12-10-2008, 03:00 PM

I hate ALL of these fucking bailouts. If I get fired from my job and cant pay my bills, I guarantee you nobody is going to bail me out. I say fuck em all. Let them go under. Maybe American should stop paying our taxes to protest this bullshit. They cant put us all in jail, who the fuck would pay the taxes then?

Corey · 12-10-2008, 03:03 PM

Nothing good will come of these bailouts. Nothing will be saved. We're giving money to car companies that have mismanaged themselves into catastrophy and nothing will change. They'll be back before the end of next year looking for another bailout, and I fucking hope the people in charge aren't stupid enough to give it to them again.

KSGregman · 12-10-2008, 03:08 PM

DO it...or have it done TO you....

Surely we are not STUPID enough to allow it to be done to us again....are we?!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/op...=1&ref=opinion

This is money wasted....we are "investing" (if you can call this bailout an investment, rather than just dumping money down the wishing well) in Car 1.0....we SHOULD be investing in Car 2.0.

Our competitors are....and we'll wind up buying the technology from them....just like we buy oil now.

Why?

Because we are fucking lazy idiots...THAT is why.

fatbuckRTO · 12-10-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krabill

That is fucking hilarity, truth, and sadness all wrapped up into one convenient package. Thanks!

pauldun170 · 12-10-2008, 05:14 PM

Congress - THE REASON YOU ARE FAILING IS BECAUSE YOUR ENTIRE FLEET HASN'T BEEN CONVERTED TO HYBRIDS!!!

Automakers - Well gee...wonder why the hybrids we do offer don't sell all that well and never seem to get press. So you are saying that powertrain technology will save us? Gee....thanks. we love it when lawyers, poly sci majors and former ceos of other industries tell us how to adapt to conditions in the automotive market place.

Consumer - I read in Consumer Reports that nobody should buy American and everyone should buy Japanese. BTW: Is the broken door handle on my Arcadia covered under warranty?

Unions - IT'S THE EVIL CEO'S FAULT FOR CREATING DESIGNS THAT DON'T SELL. Don't you dare think about closing the plants that produce cars that don't sell.

Typical owner of an American car - I like my car. Hasn't given me any problems..pretty happy with it and it gets the job done.

Me - Where the fuck are the manual transmission options?

Particle Man · 12-10-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldun170

Me - Where the fuck are the manual transmission options?

I've been bitching about that for YEARS. I got 210,000 miles out of a Pontiac Grand Prix... 3.1L, one of the last years they made them stick ('90). I loved that car (would still have it if some c**t hadn't side swiped me and totaled it). I wanted to buy another and contacted GM via their website (this was back in the '90s so take that for what it's worth lol) and was told that they were not going to offer a manual transmission in any new Grand Prix.

Never bought one again.

pauldun170 · 12-10-2008, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Particle Man

I've been bitching about that for YEARS. I got 210,000 miles out of a Pontiac Grand Prix... 3.1L, one of the last years they made them stick ('90). I loved that car (would still have it if some c**t hadn't side swiped me and totaled it). I wanted to buy another and contacted GM via their website (this was back in the '90s so take that for what it's worth lol) and was told that they were not going to offer a manual transmission in any new Grand Prix.

Never bought one again.

Friend had one with the 2.8 +5spd combination...guessing it was an 89'.
Not a bad car when he wasn't fixing the steering rack.

Particle Man · 12-12-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldun170

Not a bad car when he wasn't fixing the steering rack.

from what I hear I was one of the few who didn't have that problem. All I did was change the oil, replace tires/brakes etc and that's about it (the A/C compressor went at 200,000 - wasn't worth it to replace the sucker).

12-10-2008, 10:53 AM	#1
pauldun170 Serious Business Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: New York Moto: 1993 ZX-11 2008 CBR1000rr Posts: 9,723	More Auto Bailout nonsense An all-American auto industry bailout? Congress wonders whether automakers will spend bailout money in U.S. By Tom Curry National affairs writer msnbc.com updated 8:23 a.m. ET, Wed., Dec. 10, 2008 WASHINGTON - With Congress on the brink of lending $15 billion in taxpayer money to Ford, Chrysler and General Motors, some legislators are worried that those funds will end up overseas. Congress and the White House struck a tentative deal late Tuesday night, but the plan faces substantial obstacles from Republicans. Will Detroit's "Big Three" use the loan to buy foreign-made components or expand operations abroad? Rep. Don Manzullo, R-Ill., whose Rockford-based district is a center of the U.S. tool and die industry, asked Ford chief executive officer Alan Mulally at last Friday’s House Financial Services Committee hearing whether he would "be buying more fasteners and tool and dies from China” to use in manufacturing Ford vehicles. “We operate all around the world,” Mulally replied. Manzullo asked, “Does that mean we’re going to lose more of the fastener and tool-and-die industry in the United States because you’re going to be buying that stuff from the Chinese?” “Absolutely not,” insisted Mulally. “The plan that we presented grows our business in the United States.” But what about U.S.-based tool-and-die firms and parts suppliers, Manzullo asked. “Are you going to use U.S. taxpayers’ dollars to source more tool-and-die equipment and fasteners from overseas facilities for American manufacturers?” “No,” Mulally finally replied. Can Congress restrict bailout money? In a draft of the auto industry loan legislation that Congress will likely vote on this week, there was a provision designed to deter the Detroit automakers from spending their money outside the United States. It would require them to report to an overseer, appointed by the president, any investment or purchase they made in excess of $25 million. But President George W. Bush’s aides reportedly oppose that provision as micromanaging. It isn’t clear if any “invest in America” requirement will be in the version of the bill the House and Senate will vote on. Lawmakers in both parties want to ensure that the money lent to Detroit is spent only in the United States. “We’ve got to make sure this money us invested in the U.S. and not outside the country,” said Sen. Jon Tester, D-Montana, a member of the Banking Committee who questioned the auto company executives at last Thursday’s hearing Another committee member, Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., said a “spend only in the United States” provision “should be an absolute requirement. If U.S. taxpayers are putting up the money, it ought to go to benefit U.S. workers and U.S. communities.” But since funds are fungible and the Big Three have plants in foreign countries, as well as foreign parts suppliers, it’s not clear how this requirement could be enforced. Richard Curless, the chief technical officer of the largest machine tool company still located in the United States, MAG Industrial Automation Systems, is one witness to the damage that the Detroit Three can do by buying their components outside the United States. Tax incentives to buy American On Tuesday, testifying to the House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming, Curless urged Congress to pass tax incentives to nudge the Detroit automakers to buy from his firm and not from its Japanese competitors. “It is difficult to work with them because they buy cheap parts from the Far East,” he told the committee. “I’d like to see Congress require them to buy the technology from the United States. You’re not going to change everything all at once to say ‘you can’t get anything offshore,’ but there ought to be some incentives — that’s what we’re looking for,” he said in an interview after his testimony. MAG Industrial Automation Systems has plants in Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Kentucky, Wisconsin and California. The company also supplies equipment to design and build Boeing aircraft and the Joint Strike Fighter built by Lockheed Martin. “We’re going to take that technology and move it to the automobile industry,” Curless said Tuesday. “Your cars in the future are going to be made of very much lighter weight composite material.” He added that while the Detroit firms will buy from MAG Industrial’s Japanese competitors, the Japanese car manufacturers “are not going to buy from us. Japan is very nationalistic in what they do.” MAG Industrial has two plants in China which, he said, make “mostly machine tools for the China market.” Peter Morici, professor of international business in the University of Maryland business school, said after his testimony to the House committee Tuesday that if Congress creates subsidies for Detroit firms to build the next generation of more fuel-efficient vehicles, it ought to require that the research and development and initial production be done in the United States. “Whatever is developed here the first production runs should be done here,” he said. Although European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has raised the prospect he could file a complaint under World Trade Organization rules about the rescue package, Morici said, “You only have a problem in the WTO if someone can prove a harm. I don’t think anybody will be able to prove a harm.” © 2008 msnbc.com URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28138287/

12-10-2008, 03:03 PM	#4
Corey AMA Supersport Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Florida Moto: Not a damn thing Posts: 2,612	Nothing good will come of these bailouts. Nothing will be saved. We're giving money to car companies that have mismanaged themselves into catastrophy and nothing will change. They'll be back before the end of next year looking for another bailout, and I fucking hope the people in charge aren't stupid enough to give it to them again. __________________ Half man, half horse, half motorcycle. All awesome. "Your game is shit, your company is shit. Activision ruined you! Activision ruined you." - Francis

12-10-2008, 02:55 PM	#2
Krabill WERA Yellow Plate Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tulsa, OK Moto: 08 WR250R, 12 XTZ1200 Posts: 558

12-10-2008, 03:00 PM	#3
Rider Moto GP Star Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 12,156	I hate ALL of these fucking bailouts. If I get fired from my job and cant pay my bills, I guarantee you nobody is going to bail me out. I say fuck em all. Let them go under. Maybe American should stop paying our taxes to protest this bullshit. They cant put us all in jail, who the fuck would pay the taxes then?

12-10-2008, 03:08 PM	#5
KSGregman Get Fit...or Get OUT Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: KS Moto: 07 M109-R Posts: 1,993	DO it...or have it done TO you.... Surely we are not STUPID enough to allow it to be done to us again....are we?! http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/op...=1&ref=opinion This is money wasted....we are "investing" (if you can call this bailout an investment, rather than just dumping money down the wishing well) in Car 1.0....we SHOULD be investing in Car 2.0. Our competitors are....and we'll wind up buying the technology from them....just like we buy oil now. Why? Because we are fucking lazy idiots...THAT is why.

12-10-2008, 05:14 PM	#7
pauldun170 Serious Business Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: New York Moto: 1993 ZX-11 2008 CBR1000rr Posts: 9,723	Congress - THE REASON YOU ARE FAILING IS BECAUSE YOUR ENTIRE FLEET HASN'T BEEN CONVERTED TO HYBRIDS!!! Automakers - Well gee...wonder why the hybrids we do offer don't sell all that well and never seem to get press. So you are saying that powertrain technology will save us? Gee....thanks. we love it when lawyers, poly sci majors and former ceos of other industries tell us how to adapt to conditions in the automotive market place. Consumer - I read in Consumer Reports that nobody should buy American and everyone should buy Japanese. BTW: Is the broken door handle on my Arcadia covered under warranty? Unions - IT'S THE EVIL CEO'S FAULT FOR CREATING DESIGNS THAT DON'T SELL. Don't you dare think about closing the plants that produce cars that don't sell. Typical owner of an American car - I like my car. Hasn't given me any problems..pretty happy with it and it gets the job done. Me - Where the fuck are the manual transmission options?