Go buy an MV Agusta now....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I see it as Ford taking over Porsche and putting Mustang parts on a 911.

ooh unreliable parts on a deathtrap platform. sounds like a great way to reduce the world idiot count. hey ford are ya reading this?

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

No need to hate. We're having a great exchange.

Do you believe that the frames manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced by MV?

Do you believe that the engine components manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced my MV?


If so, that is inaccurate. HD moving production of components from MV's suppliers to HD's suppliers would not necessitate a decline in quality. They don't have to go lower quality to save money. They could, but I'd bet they won't.

Why?

If people stop looking at MV as a quality, sought after motorcycle marque, people will stop coming into the MV showrooms. If people aren't coming into the MV showrooms, they won't be looking at HD models either. It would negate what HD is trying to do.

I don't know you so I will acquiesce to your greater knowledge of Harley's long range plans for MV. I personally don't know. I was arguing your assertion about HD being able to lower the price of an MV thru volume. You seem to know more about it than I do. Do me a favor and tell Wille G I said hi at the next HD board meeting you attend.

To answer your questions,YES I BELIEVE HDs ARE A LOWER QUALITY MOTORCYCLE THAN MV!!!!! Who doesn't? Yes I think that MV uses better components (brakes,rims,suspension,electronics,etc) than Harley. Yes I believe that MV motors are made from materials that HD suppliers don't even deal with. Yes, I believe that MVs outperform HDs in every catagory aside from comfort. I also think that Suzukis,Yamahas,Hondas,Kawasakis,etc are also inferior to MV. I would have the same concerns if Suzuki had purchased MV. Although,at least Suzuki knows how to build a high performance motorcycle in the first place. Oh and please explain why you all think that Buell and MV will have anything to do with each other? There's no way that these two makes could be any more different!

News flash the very second that this buyout was announced 50% of the motorcycle buying public stopped considering MV "a quality,sought after motorcycle marque". Hence the original post. Out of 5 forums,the only people that REALLY believe this is great own Buells. Everyone else is at best "cautiously optimistic". FYI when AMF bought out HD alot of people said the same things you guys are saying about volume,cost savings,quality,etc. I owned two Sportsters from that time... JUNK!!! My friend bought one.... broke down before he even got home! Do you really believe that HDs are made to the same standards as a MV? I don't. Besides,you quote my posts but I don't think you read them....

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I don't know you so I will acquiesce to your greater knowledge of Harley's long range plans for MV. I personally don't know. I was arguing your assertion about HD being able to lower the price of an MV thru volume. You seem to know more about it than I do. Do me a favor and tell Wille G I said hi at the next HD board meeting you attend.

To answer your questions,YES I BELIEVE HDs ARE A LOWER QUALITY MOTORCYCLE THAN MV!!!!! Who doesn't? Yes I think that MV uses better components (brakes,rims,suspension,electronics,etc) than Harley. Yes I believe that MV motors are made from materials that HD suppliers don't even deal with. Yes, I believe that MVs outperform HDs in every catagory aside from comfort. I also think that Suzukis,Yamahas,Hondas,Kawasakis,etc are also inferior to MV. I would have the same concerns if Suzuki had purchased MV. Although,at least Suzuki knows how to build a high performance motorcycle in the first place. Oh and please explain why you all think that Buell and MV will have anything to do with each other? There's no way that these two makes could be any more different!

News flash the very second that this buyout was announced 50% of the motorcycle buying public stopped considering MV "a quality,sought after motorcycle marque". Hence the original post. Out of 5 forums,the only people that REALLY believe this is great own Buells. Everyone else is at best "cautiously optimistic". FYI when AMF bought out HD alot of people said the same things you guys are saying about volume,cost savings,quality,etc. I owned two Sportsters from that time... JUNK!!! My friend bought one.... broke down before he even got home! Do you really believe that HDs are made to the same standards as a MV? I don't. Besides,you quote my posts but I don't think you read them....

I am not sure as to the long range plans. I have no inside knowledge of HD specifically.

My background is in finance, economics, and corporate management. Yours appears to be on the manufacturing end (I could be very wrong on that.) I believe we both have valid points on this merger. I can only comment on what, corporately, a merger of this type would mean internally to HD and MV from a management standpoint.

It could all go horribly off the rails, or it could be one of the best things for MV. I have to believe that MV didn't view this as a hostile takeover. There was a reason MV would be willing to approve this merger. MV could have easily fought this and it would have been very public and very messy. They didn't.

I don't know if you are familiar with market segmentation as a concept, but many times companies produce products of two or three grades at two or three price points. The goal is to generate profits across a wide variety of price ranges. Sometimes Nabisco produces products under store labels that are exactly the same as the name brand products. Same product, two different prices. They make a smaller margin off the lower priced product, but they expand the quantity of goods sold.

HD may be looking to do some of the same as well. They have both Buell and MV. Two different grades of motorcycle. Two different price points.

We shall see. I hope that MV remains a high quality marque. Having lived the AMC days first hand, I can't imagine HD wanting to propogate those same impacts on MV.

They are a bunch of assless pant wearing knuckle draggers, but they ain't dumb.

[Amber Lamps]

I have a very varied background. I've worked in factories,I've worked in offices,I have a couple of worthless degrees and alot of experience. One thing is certain,I have a grassroots understanding of "market segmentation" as I've been the guy on the floor of the factory changing the bags to go from Butternut bread to Meijer's store brand. I've produced "A","B" and "C" parts on a factory line. I've sold Jensen,Phase Linear and Infinity brand stereo equipment which are made by the same company. I've worked at the factory that made Rockford Fosgate,MB Quart and Lightning speakers. Man,I don't know if you're just messing with me or what but if you are insinuating that I'm stupid or don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have the same degree as you do... market segmentation is HD producing/selling a Sportster,a Fatboy and a Roadking. Three levels of bikes made by the same company to cover a wide variety of customers. Honda selling a VFR800,a ST1300 and a Goldwing is another example. Chevy, Olds, Cadillac. Cheeseburger,double cheeseburger,Big Mac. I understand the concept,I doubt that to be HD's goal. As someone said,HD customers will barely give a MV a second look. Oh and 50 million dollars of debt and a pack of creditors on your back can make you very agreeable to a "merger". Besides,I could have swore I read somewhere that they have been looking for a buyer for quite some time.It may be that MV approached HD.

[Audiomechanic]

Dang. How did this thread migrate from motorcycle companies, to car companies, to mayo? I am very confused.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

Dang. How did this thread migrate from motorcycle companies, to car companies, to mayo? I am very confused.

Where have you been punk?!? You started this and I've going it solo against the HD fanatic! You could have helped me you know!

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I have a very varied background. I've worked in factories,I've worked in offices,I have a couple of worthless degrees and alot of experience. One thing is certain,I have a grassroots understanding of "market segmentation" as I've been the guy on the floor of the factory changing the bags to go from Butternut bread to Meijer's store brand. I've produced "A","B" and "C" parts on a factory line. I've sold Jensen,Phase Linear and Infinity brand stereo equipment which are made by the same company. I've worked at the factory that made Rockford Fosgate,MB Quart and Lightning speakers. Man,I don't know if you're just messing with me or what but if you are insinuating that I'm stupid or don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have the same degree as you do... market segmentation is HD producing/selling a Sportster,a Fatboy and a Roadking. Three levels of bikes made by the same company to cover a wide variety of customers. Honda selling a VFR800,a ST1300 and a Goldwing is another example. Chevy, Olds, Cadillac. Cheeseburger,double cheeseburger,Big Mac. I understand the concept,I doubt that to be HD's goal. As someone said,HD customers will barely give a MV a second look. Oh and 50 million dollars of debt and a pack of creditors on your back can make you very agreeable to a "merger". Besides,I could have swore I read somewhere that they have been looking for a buyer for quite some time.It may be that MV approached HD.

Not messing with you at all. I don't know your background. I don't want to assume you are familiar with a concept. I definitely am not insinuating that you are stupid. Quite to the contrary. It's been a lively and well thought out discussion. I've enjoyed it!

We'll simply have to see what happens. It'll be interesting to see where MV is in a year, two years, and five years.

I believe it was $109M of debt. It could make one "concerned". If it was as bad as it might seem, it really doesn't matter what HD does MV was potentially headed for oblivion or at least Chinese ownership.

Ducati was in no shape to make a bid for MV. They were actually in the same discussions MV was. We could just as easily be discussing Ducati. What is HD thinking? They obviously have some sort of a plan.

Being a Buell fan, MV's purchase is synonymous to your Morman husband coming home with a younger, hotter wife. You wonder who's going to get the nicer gifts.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

the HD fanatic!

Hardly. The sooner Buell can get out from under the dealership distribution of the chrome baby boomer barges the better.

[Audiomechanic]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Where have you been punk?!? You started this and I've going it solo against the HD fanatic! You could have helped me you know!

Sorry man. I dropped out because I realized I'm not smart enough to continue. So I thought I'd read and learn. You're way smarter than me.

I'm not against Harley's. That being said, the only way I can see Harley helping MV is marketing. Any other contribution, especially in the realm of technology and design, will cause MV to suffer, far as I can tell.

[dReWpY]

If you cant build'em, buy'em

[6doublefive321]

Originally Posted by drewpy

If you cant build'em, buy'em

You said more in 7 words than everyone else did in their novels. Nicely done.