weapon for concealed carry

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by t-rock

TIGGER, when did you get so damn logical?

Um thanks,I guess...what am I normally fucking illogical? huh huh huh? I honestly was interested in what they had to say. Especially Amorok as we've gotten in similar debates about auto matic weapons. I know he thinks I'm a coward because I don't want to kill people anymore,I guess he has a right to his opinion,but I just don't see the point.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by nhgunnut

First because you chose to serve Thank You.
Next as I pointed out The Swiss prove that the possibility that a firearm is present is one the best deterrents for preventing crime. A fact that has long been backed up by simple crime statistics here in this country. The states that have will issue CCW have lower violent crime rates than those that do not. (Per the FBI) This does come with one less pretty reality as well though places where there is access have also show that of those who attempt suicide those with those places where there is access to firearms have a higher rate of completion.
As a responsible citizen that carries on a near daily basis I do how ever find your description of armed vigilantes’ a good illustration of the kind of senseless propaganda that has been perpetuated by the various anti gun groups. People who choose to carry are presented by then as mindless vigilantes. It is rather like the monkey cartoon, it is an easy mindless presentation that has no basis in fact but plays instead to cultural stereotypes that feed the hysteria of one political group. Another misrepresented fact is that if you won a handgun you are more likely to shoot someone you know than a stranger. The rest of that reality is (again according to the FBI) the person most likely to commit a crime against you that warrants the use of deadly force is someone you know. In short , accidental shooting while they happen and are tragic are rare and the largest majority of those included in that statistic "Needed Shooting"
The reality is those of us who do choose to accept the responsibility of carrying a weapon , openly or concealed do so understanding what the consequences are of using deadly force. Among them for those who have not considered them that first without proper training the weapon may be used on you. Once you use deadly force you open yourself to both criminal and civil litigation that will be years if not decades in resolving.
In truth I take no issue with someone who chooses not to carry or use deadly force. I take tremendous issue with being portrayed as macho , or gun crazy or a vigilante. I carry fully understanding that it is a tremendous responsibility and that because I carry my family is probably a little safer, as is the rest of my community because here in NH anyone considering committing a crime does so knowing that about 1 in every 25 or so of us have a CCW. Just over the line in VT where all you need to carry concealed is a clean record and a pocket has even less crime. As far as the question of whether my radio is worth someone’s life my view on that is they decided what their life was worth when they decided to violate my property.
If you don't want exercise option to carry and or the accompanying the responsibility I respect that. Please don't limit my options for your illusion of greater security or to support some political agenda.
As it happens I provide mental health services to the Massachusetts Department of corrections. A state that has some of the most draconian and irrational gun laws in the country. Every day when I go behind the walls I am reminded of how big a failure these laws are.
Having said all of that I will now piss off all the pro gunners by saying I am not now nor have I ever been a meber of the NRA. Recent political events have me considering joining.

Hey,for the record,I only use the "armed vigilantes" argument when someone tells me they carry a gun to "prevent crime" as in the liquor store argument. Listen,I don't doubt that criminals think twice about attacking someone when the possibility of them having a gun is increased. I never said it didn't,I merely,and rather meekly imho,asked "WHY" you all felt the need to carry a gun everywhere you go? As always when asking these types of questions,I have to be labeled unpatriotic,a coward,not fulfilling my duty to society,etc.

[t-homo]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Um thanks,I guess...what am I normally fucking illogical? huh huh huh? I honestly was interested in what they had to say. Especially Amorok as we've gotten in similar debates about auto matic weapons. I know he thinks I'm a coward because I don't want to kill people anymore,I guess he has a right to his opinion,but I just don't see the point.

I meant back in the day when the board just started and you just argued to argue. This is actually an incredibly interesting thread.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by t-rock

I meant back in the day when the board just started and you just argued to argue. This is actually an incredibly interesting thread.

Oh well then thanks! Oh and hey don't let those guys get you down. They only pick on you 'cause they're jealous!

[t-homo]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Oh well then thanks! Oh and hey don't let those guys get you down. They only pick on you 'cause they're jealous!

Fuck 'em.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by t-rock

Fuck 'em.

:bigrofl:

[Mr Lefty]

I personally believe anyone sans convicted fellons should be allowed to carry a gun... given they've gone through gun saftey training.

I personally I don't carry... never felt the need...

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by ebbs15

I personally believe anyone sans convicted fellons should be allowed to carry a gun... given they've gone through gun saftey training.

I personally I don't carry... never felt the need...

And here is my fucking problem in a nut shell!!! You just said EXACTLY what I believe but you put it so much better than I have...damn! I agree that everyone has a right to carry,with above provisos,I just don't understand why everyone NEEDS to.

[Adeptus_Minor]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Ok I'm not gonna take the time to look up these incidents but on the whole,quite frankly,who says that an armed citizen could have stopped it? Was everyone killed,who's to say that an armed "hero" in the group might not have gotten more people killed? Haven't there ever been situations when a "hero" got a bunch of people killed that might have otherwise survived?

Well, you really should take the time to look it up.
You seem to be of the rather idealistic opinion that if you keep to your own business and look the other way and just lie down for armed assailants that they'll just take what they want and go away.

Do these sorts of things happen all the time? No.
Have they ever happened to me? No.
But it can happen, it does happen, and if and when it happens to me or someone I care about, I want them to have the ability to choose whether or not they are a helpless victim or if they can at least try to do something about it.

In a perfect world, or if we're simply lucky enough, none of us will ever see a situation where having a gun means the difference between whether we live or die. But we all know this isn't a perfect world and as I have not yet won the lottery, I don't think I can count on my luck forever.

And it's a little silly to play that "Oh, I guess I don't have the right to disagree" card around here.
Of course you have the right to disagree.
However, your disagreement is based upon an idealized view of human interaction where all conflict can be resolved by avoidance and deescalation.
There's nothing wrong with that and if everyone tried to go that route first, we'd have a lot less violence in general. Unfortunately, in some situations, you are faced with an individual who has neither the ability nor inclination to see reason. It is in those hopefully rare and isolated instances that those who choose to carry hope to prevail where others would just end up another sad statistic.

[Adeptus_Minor]

Originally Posted by ebbs15

I personally believe anyone sans convicted felons should be allowed to carry a gun... given they've gone through gun safety training.

Yes, and yes.
That is what I mean by "responsible" citizens, not just any fool who takes a notion to stick a gun in his pants on the way out the door.