They all can bow in front of Fords

[Dnyce]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

Ok let me catch up a bit here. I will attempt to shed some light here. Keep on mind that I work for a company whose headquarters is in Germany. I do business in about any country in the world that is worth a shit. I understand we are living in a global economy - good, bad or indifferent. I import and export shit every day. I deal with all the auto manufacturers including Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, Auto Alliance (Mazda), GM, Ford, (don't deal much with Chrysler because the fuckers don't pay period and play games but I still do to a point), Tata Motors, etc.

First off here is the fundamental problem the fascist brainwashing media won't tell you because it won't sell papers or get people to watch their bullshit news:

Ford, GM and Chrysler have a shitload of retirees and that adds big time to the cost of a car. They, for now while they can, are taking care of these retirees - it cost billions for them to do so and rightfully so - you work your entire life making a company money they shouldn't throw you in the dumpster and move on. You can take the Union out of the equation and they still would struggle to compete just from this one fact. Therefore to be more competitive they seek low cost country sourcing like Mexico. A lot of people motherfuck them for doing so but between the retiree benefits and pensions and the hoops the EPA makes them jump through there aren't left with a lot of options. Now Toyota has virtually no retirees, same with Honda and Nissan who has the most because they have been here the longest still pales in comparison to any 1 of the 3.

Second Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, VW - all the big guns - set up shop in right to work states. Therefore no union and ultimately a lot lower wages. Did you know that when Mercedes came to shitville they were given $1 billion in your tax money to set up shop there? Interesting. I am sure all the others were handsomely rewarded as well otherwise why would Hyundai set up in shitville and then back to back set up a Kia plant across the street in Georgia.

Third Japanese, German and Chinese companies have ALL received "bailout" money from their governments at one time or another and rumor is right now with the depressed economy they are after a little more. Their governments take care of them virtually no questions asked because they recognize their value.

Fourth - a big fact that most people, especially the media who glosses over it, don't understand that this "bailout" is a loan not a handout - Chrysler got a $1 billion loan about 20 years ago and paid back every cent.

Fifth - you say you understand the ramifications if we don't do a bailout - but do you? Two words come to mind for me - economic collapse. This little recession we are in causing us so much grief is based on a 0.3% decrease in the GNP - that is a ZERO in front of the decimal. If GM, Ford and Chrysler go out you are looking at a 4% decrease in the GNP.

Sixth - The media loves to embed in your head that Toyota and all these fuckers employ Americans and they build plants in America and their cars are more American than even the American companies. But what they don't tell you is that their plants are FREE TRADE ZONES - basically when you step onto their property you give up all your rights as an American citizen and you are on foreign soil. They also manipulate free trade by not getting taxed on parts they bring from overseas - they are only taxed on the final product - the car or suv they "export" to the dealership - i.e. drive off the free trade zone to the dealership - this is total bullshit. They save billions this way and it enables them to be far more competitive.

Seventh - Back to them employing Americans - yeah that part is true but if you work with or for these companies it will be real apparent real quick who is in charge. For instance Hyundai - the Koreans call all the shots. The other issue is they are not employing unemployed Americans they are employing like farmers who already were contributing but now they quit farming and go to work for more money in the auto plant. And the problem with it is the profits are being funneled back to their motherlands - not back into our system - they only spend what they need to here.

Eighth - the buddy system. Of course every company has "preferred" suppliers that is no secret - maybe each plant has one, etc. These foreign companies rely HEAVILY on foreign suppliers - such as conveyors - Nissan uses NKC out of Japan almost exclusively - so the money they are spending goes where? Not to America. Of course you also have Daifuku - another Japanese conveyor company that is big in Toyota.

On the surface they can sugarcoat the foreign auto makers all they want and bash the american companies but it is mostly media propaganda for a variety of reasons to influence your thoughts about the subject - don't buy it. Do research, think for yourself, consider all the variables, etc. Remember World War II - when we didn't have enough resources to build our war machines who shut down production and dealerships to help with the war effort? The big 3. Now if the big 3 slips away and we don't give them a mere pittance to keep them going who is going to be there the next time we need them? Toyota? I think not. And none of the other fuckers will either - they are only here to capitalize on what they call "the Americas" and when the well runs dry they will move on to greener pastures leaving us to rot in hell. Here is a very interesting read (and there is a lot more information out there if you take the time to search it out - drop the media, forget the bullshit you see on TV and look for the real answers - the problem is most of the sheep of this country do not do so):

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region. Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers. Sen. Richard Shelby of shitville has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world. When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world. Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of shitville has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government
subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, shitville agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, shitville's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack
of knowledge and lack of! due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concession s begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough. Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business. The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created th e problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment. So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country. So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

i quoted you for two reasons. 1, u quoted me(probably by accident, based on your response), so i felt as if you were talking to me. 2-it was a great post.

however, i never said i was against the loan(i knew it wasnt a bailout from day 1) hell i never even brought that up. and im not against the big three. personally i'm a chevy guy, but yes, i have driven a ford lately. literally. was a focus. drove it for awhile. a chevy has taken me and my bike, or me and my dads bike/s and race cars to the track for 30+ years.

im not saying a nissan truck is better, cheaper, better made, whatever-im just saying its a truck. its a truck, and should be in direct competition withthe big three's trucks. if ford has the best selling truck-good, means theyve been kickin import ass. me and gas understand each other now anyway-what u said didnt support what he said either, u just gave like 8 damn good reasons to buy domestic over import. but i was buying domestic anyway

damn gd (and coherent, compared to your usual stuff) post

[Gas Man]

Thank you Mud for that!! I knew you were in the industry and could set down knowledge!!!

[Gas Man]

Dnyce... but can you see the knowledge, and passion in Muds post? That is what is in our blood here in the motor city. I have more family members than I care to count in the auto industry and just as many friends there too. It surrounds my life in every aspect I can think of.

I'm not sure if this bumper sticker is popular in other sections of the country but it is here...

Simply states...

"out of job yet, keep buying foreign"

Its the fuckin truth!

[DLIT]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

I have owned a lot of cars. Maybe not here but on another forum someone was bashing the Contour - I owned the Mercury version - the Mystique. Beat the shit out of it from 5,000 miles when I got it to 212,000 when I sold it - did nothing to it except brakes, tires and oil. I could name you 20 more examples of American cars and trucks I have owned with the same result.

Of course if you are talking about Dodge trucks then I would have to agree - their quality has always been suspect and for a good reason. Back when I was in vehicle development at an auto parts supplier Chrysler ALWAYS bragged about being able to blow away Ford and Chevy on getting a new product to market - in I believe half the time or even less. Yes because they cut every fucking corner possible - I was making prototype parts that weren't fully tested to put on their production vehicles. And when they came to me for a new part they always had these insane ideas and I would say no metal doesn't bend that way no you can't put a hole there no that is not possible. They were completely out of touch with reality and I was only 1 part out of a million that went into the vehicle so I can only imagine what other crazy shit they did - and it shows by the number of times their junk vehicles are in the dealership.

And did you ever consider the ratio of American trucks to Toyotas in your shop equation? i.e. if they sold 2 million American trucks and 50,000 Toyotas which one do you expect to see more of for irregular service? It's a numbers game. I have seen literally thousands of American trucks that have gone hundreds of thousands of miles with only normal maintenance. And yes their body went to shit before anything else did as well. I had an F250 with a 390 in it that I drove to 400,000 miles - even the last day I had it the truck ran like the day it was born - put the key in, tap the gas pedal 2 times, turn the key and immediate start up. I beat the fuck out of that truck and it took it, liked it and asked for more.

Toyota for life.

[Mudpuppy]

Originally Posted by DLIT

Toyota for life.

When you are left ass raped with your ass packed full of fish heads and rice don't come crying to us toyota boy..

[Mudpuppy]

Originally Posted by Dnyce

i quoted you for two reasons. 1, u quoted me(probably by accident, based on your response), so i felt as if you were talking to me. 2-it was a great post.

however, i never said i was against the loan(i knew it wasnt a bailout from day 1) hell i never even brought that up. and im not against the big three. personally i'm a chevy guy, but yes, i have driven a ford lately. literally. was a focus. drove it for awhile. a chevy has taken me and my bike, or me and my dads bike/s and race cars to the track for 30+ years.

im not saying a nissan truck is better, cheaper, better made, whatever-im just saying its a truck. its a truck, and should be in direct competition withthe big three's trucks. if ford has the best selling truck-good, means theyve been kickin import ass. me and gas understand each other now anyway-what u said didnt support what he said either, u just gave like 8 damn good reasons to buy domestic over import. but i was buying domestic anyway

damn gd (and coherent, compared to your usual stuff) post

yeah i meant to quote gasman or something.. i wasn't saying you were against the loan at all just laying down the facts as i know them because not a lot of people and especially not the media will tell you.. it's all a fucking game and they are playing us all right now for their own benefit.. they all break off a little piece.. the thing to remember no matter what they tell you or how it seems - we, the little guy, are getting fucked somehow someway.. so take a big bite of the shit sandwich and enjoy.. or join the movement and fuck em all..

i am glad you enjoyed my post and i apologize for my coherent nature - i promise it won't happen again (picked the wrong week to stop sniffing airplane glue)..

[Dnyce]

Originally Posted by Gas Man

Dnyce... but can you see the knowledge, and passion in Muds post? That is what is in our blood here in the motor city. I have more family members than I care to count in the auto industry and just as many friends there too. It surrounds my life in every aspect I can think of.

I'm not sure if this bumper sticker is popular in other sections of the country but it is here...

Simply states...

"out of job yet, keep buying foreign"

Its the fuckin truth!

yep, learned some stuff i didnt know, confirmed some stuff i already knew

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

yeah i meant to quote gasman or something.. i wasn't saying you were against the loan at all just laying down the facts as i know them because not a lot of people and especially not the media will tell you.. it's all a fucking game and they are playing us all right now for their own benefit.. they all break off a little piece.. the thing to remember no matter what they tell you or how it seems - we, the little guy, are getting fucked somehow someway.. so take a big bite of the shit sandwich and enjoy.. or join the movement and fuck em all..

i am glad you enjoyed my post and i apologize for my coherent nature - i promise it won't happen again (picked the wrong week to stop sniffing airplane glue)..

thats cool man, you did mention some shit i wasnt aware of, always gd to learn something. u should just make 1 coherent post per week, dont wana overdo it lol

[Mudpuppy]

Originally Posted by Dnyce

yep, learned some stuff i didnt know, confirmed some stuff i already knew



thats cool man, you did mention some shit i wasnt aware of, always gd to learn something. u should just make 1 coherent post per week, dont wana overdo it lol

thanks for the tip - i will definitely try to limit it so i don't hurt myself or others.. i have been using the guns for food thread to offset my coherency here..

i guess the whole problem i have with all of this is no one takes the time to look at all the facts and even if they do it's not easy to find them - they tell you what they want you to know and they distort reality for their own specific reasons (i.e. they get money from these companies or whatever)..

[Dnyce]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

thanks for the tip - i will definitely try to limit it so i don't hurt myself or others.. i have been using the guns for food thread to offset my coherency here..

i guess the whole problem i have with all of this is no one takes the time to look at all the facts and even if they do it's not easy to find them - they tell you what they want you to know and they distort reality for their own specific reasons (i.e. they get money from these companies or whatever)..

yep
fox kept talkin about the auto bailout on the news all day-the fact that its a loan was NEVER mentioned. and that one idiot(shelby) was talkin about how its a waste of taxpayers money, the big three is a lost cause, they cant compete with ev1 else, etc etc. skews the average persons view like a mofo

[DLIT]

Originally Posted by Mudpuppy

When you are left ass raped with your ass packed full of fish heads and rice don't come crying to us toyota boy..

Copy that!