shits gonna hit the fan now

[Trip]

Then the teachers you are referring to, should actually be happy about what I am referring too. Their review gets better, they get to fail the asshats, and the shitty teachers that use to get tenure no longer get it.

[goof2]

I'm no fan of No Child Left Behind, but as I understand it there aren't a whole lot of other options. The feds want to improve schools, but the only real power they have is writing checks. They have little ability to dictate how schools should operate. The result is the feds have mandated a few tests, about the limit of their non-fiscal power, and made receiving federal funds conditional on schools meeting some basic standards. It is an attempt to hold schools accountable within the limited framework the federal government has to work in.

I'm all for changing how schools operate. They should have performance evaluations for personnel based on more than the results of a test. They should get rid of "tenure", actual and effective (even schools without it make it damn near impossible to fire under-performing teachers), and allow schools to hold teachers and administrators accountable for their performance. The problem is that has to be done at the state and local levels, something I just don't see happening.

America currently spends a ton of money on education. While we don't spend the most per student at the elementary and secondary level it is pretty close and we are top five. I don't think money is the issue, but at the federal level that is about all that can be controlled.

[EpyonXero]

Originally Posted by '73 H1 Triple

It's time for the overly compensated teachers ( and especially the admins ) to get a dose of reality. WTF should they have a "golden parachute" of a retirement plan and pay next to nothing for for benefits when in the real world it doesn't work that way?

Don't give that bullshit of taking work home, they knew the "rules" when they picked that career.

I hate this argument. Just because the average worker has no job security or company help for their retirement other than putting a chunk of their paycheck in the stock market to help make the rich richer doesnt mean everyone who has benefits should lose theirs to make it fair.

[Particle Man]

Originally Posted by Trip

If you draw up the performance indicators correctly, the bad eggs won't doom teachers and get them fired. Your

therein lies an even larger problem: right now, the folks drawing those indicators up are on a witch hunt (read: elected officials who are so busy KEEPING their jobs they aren't really DOING their jobs...)

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Particle Man

therein lies an even larger problem: right now, the folks drawing those indicators up are on a witch hunt (read: elected officials who are so busy KEEPING their jobs they aren't really DOING their jobs...)

It's problem here too, they draw up indicators that are impossible from the start of it so we all get the basic CoL raise instead of a larger one. They also write enough wiggle room they can give their golden children bigger raises.

[wildchild]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Though most other types of workers don't need the amount of external prep time, that a teacher does either. You can't really compare a car salesman or a receptionist to a teacher, for example.

ok use a couple jobs that I didn't mention if you want to. you're right those two don't do much prep time, they don't make much money either.

the jobs I mentioned prior are all salary jobs that make a decent living and require extra input just like the teaching profession.

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

I'm sorry, did I give you the impression that I was citing them as examples to follow? My point is that there's a butt ton of fat to trim in this country before we should start worrying about "overpaid" teachers. And I mean public school, K-12 teachers here.

those are examples of what happens when unions run things and rather then give in a little will let people lose their jobs. let companies go out of business let homes be foreclosed on.

Originally Posted by Trip

Pay is not really a concern for me. I want to get rid of their tenure and how they are performance reviewed with a little helping of ability to fire poor performers.

exactly!!

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by wildchild

those are examples of what happens when unions run things and rather then give in a little will let people lose their jobs. let companies go out of business let homes be foreclosed on.

I think you and Trip misunderstand me. Just because I don't think teachers are overpaid, and in fact believe they are underpaid in most cases, doesn't mean I want a teacher's union around fucking things up. I thought I was clear about that in my first post, but apparently not. It's like I said, my mom doesn't even belong to the local teachers' union because it's pretty much worthless; an organization that exists solely to keep existing (and likely making more money for the union leaders).

Like I said, the Wisconsin governor's proposed (and, I guess, passed) restrictions on the state worker unions don't seem unreasonable to me. If the workers really want their union around, how hard would it be to vote on its continued existence once a year? If they really want their union around, how hard would it be to raise funds without mandatory dues? If I'm understanding the situation correctly, I would have been pissed to be required to be a member of a union if I were a Wisconsin teacher.

My problem with a lot of the reporting in this case (read: a lot of the reporting from Fox News) is that they were very blatantly demonizing teachers, calling them "part-time" workers, and saying they were overpaid. I don't really know about Wisconsin, but in the states I've lived if you see a teacher driving a fancy car or living in a fancy house it's because her husband is a lawyer or doctor or some other highly paid profession. It sure as shit isn't from the teacher's 30K salary.

[wildchild]

yeah things are definitely dependant on what state you're in. my grandmother retired from teaching and my grandfather was a highway worker for the state. they lived very comfortably and retired to a very nice pension.

being here in wis I haven't seen anything yet demonizing the teaching profession. the only things we have seen here that could be considered derogatory is when people talk about teachers skipping work to protest.

even worse here I seen a group of teachers who were out to protest but didn't want the hassle so they went out to eat at a local restaurant instead.

we do have a lot of part time workers at the protest however. they are substitute teachers and what not. a lot of times I think people just want to protest something and get their face on tv. many of the people at the protests here have no reason to be ther. it won't affect them in any way yet they want to protest.

[Apoc]

Yep. Those evil unions, how dare they expect fair compensation for their work. Just horrible, horrible people.

30k for what they do is a fucking pittance. Its ridiculous. Nobody teaching in the school system should be making less than 45k year. Fuck, on 30k, I wouldnt be able to fucking live. You union haters are fucking ridiculous, but im guessing its mostly jealousy.

USW Local 7085. Union Proud.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Apoc

Yep. Those evil unions, how dare they expect fair compensation for their work. Just horrible, horrible people.

30k for what they do is a fucking pittance. Its ridiculous. Nobody teaching in the school system should be making less than 45k year. Fuck, on 30k, I wouldnt be able to fucking live. You union haters are fucking ridiculous, but im guessing its mostly jealousy.

USW Local 7085. Union Proud.

Your post doesn't make sense. If these people are making "a fucking pittance", then what would "union haters" have to be jealous about? Additionally, why would these union members be fighting so hard over an organization that negotiated them that "fucking pittance" of a salary in the first place? Some other things to consider, this bill only covers public unions (people employed by the government) and even after this bill those unions still have the power to negotiate salaries. The members can still be "Union Proud" as their unions continue to negotiate them their "fucking pittance".