Arizona bill would deny citizenship to children of illegal immigrants

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by pauldun170

The sticky point is that the child IS in the US legally and as a citizen is entitled to equal protection under the law.
Putting the law to the side, what is the benefit to society to make this child a ward of the state?

Actually that's the question, which you're assuming an answer to. Again, as I said, I believe that it would be a reasonable accommodation to state that the parents must be in the country legally, for the child to obtain citizenship. Due to the many and sundry rights and privileges attendant to citizenship, I also believe that this should be a reverse onus situation (the parents must demonstrate that they were, in fact, in the country legally).

If this would require a Constitutional Amendment, then so be it. If it could be managed by Supreme Court judgment, as to intent of the 14th Amendment, then all the better.

I do believe that Constitutional protections regarding due process should apply to foreign nationals while within the United States, but that doesn't mean that the results of such exercises of due process should automatically be favourable to them.

[pauldun170]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Actually that's the question, which you're assuming an answer to. Again, as I said, I believe that it would be a reasonable accommodation to state that the parents must be in the country legally, for the child to obtain citizenship. Due to the many and sundry rights and privileges attendant to citizenship, I also believe that this should be a reverse onus situation (the parents must demonstrate that they were, in fact, in the country legally).

If this would require a Constitutional Amendment, then so be it. If it could be managed by Supreme Court judgment, as to intent of the 14th Amendment, then all the better.

I do believe that Constitutional protections regarding due process should apply to foreign nationals while within the United States, but that doesn't mean that the results of such exercises of due process should automatically be favourable to them.

I personally do not think the Constitution should be changed and that there should not be a test for those born here to attain citizenship.

I see no reason not to criminalize unlawful status but I prefer that it remain a procedural issue.
I'm fine with machine gun armed, alligator filled moats on the border and trained killer sharks patrolling our waters.
"Anchor babies" appears to be a bullshit term based on a misconception that having a child ensures illeagals can stay inthe country when it according to the info I found, during hearings a child is not given as much weight as people think during evaluation for deportation.

I believe that anyone born here should be auto citizened. that does not mean that i believe the child should be seperated from it parents. I think it is both reasonable and constitutional to deport the child with the parents NOT because it is a "dirty Mexican Anchor baby" but because the child belongs with its parents. Post deportation, that child, as an American citizen is welcome back to enjoy their birth right at anytime.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by pauldun170

I believe that anyone born here should be auto citizened. that does not mean that i believe the child should be seperated from it parents. I think it is both reasonable and constitutional to deport the child with the parents NOT because it is a "dirty Mexican Anchor baby" but because the child belongs with its parents. Post deportation, that child, as an American citizen is welcome back to enjoy their birth right at anytime.

I can get behind that logic.

The flip side to that coin though is that if it happened, you'd have certain people screaming that a "legal citizen has been deported!" or "What right does the government have to decide if the child must stay with his parents" and then you get back to the GTFO vs ward of the state argument.

[pauldun170]

Originally Posted by shmike

I can get behind that logic.

The flip side to that coin though is that if it happened, you'd have certain people screaming that a "legal citizen has been deported!" or "What right does the government have to decide if the child must stay with his parents" and then you get back to the GTFO vs ward of the state argument.

There is always someone screaming about something.

There are reasons why an illegal immigrant should be able to remain in the US. Things like war in the home country or the value of the individual is judged to be desirable (professional of some sort with wicked ninja math skills).

Here is the blanket statement for those who would scream.

"A child should not be seperated from its mother and the mother is welcome to follow the normal process to enter the country legally."


Since the actual process to enter the country, get the green card and all the require paperwork is normally an onerous PIA I'm ok with the parents of american citizens getting a fast track process. (for anyone who likes to pull the "My great great grandpappy came here legally back in 1856!! I bet you if he had to follow the same process as they do today he would probably sneak in too)

[shmike]

Originally Posted by pauldun170

There is always someone screaming about something.

There are reasons why an illegal immigrant should be able to remain in the US. Things like war in the home country or the value of the individual is judged to be desirable (professional of some sort with wicked ninja math skills).

Here is the blanket statement for those who would scream.

"A child should not be seperated from its mother and the mother is welcome to follow the normal process to enter the country legally."


Since the actual process to enter the country, get the green card and all the require paperwork is normally an onerous PIA I'm ok with the parents of american citizens getting a fast track process. (for anyone who likes to pull the "My great great grandpappy came here legally back in 1856!! I bet you if he had to follow the same process as they do today he would probably sneak in too)

You give illegals too much credit.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by pauldun170

I believe that anyone born here should be auto citizened. that does not mean that i believe the child should be seperated from it parents. I think it is both reasonable and constitutional to deport the child with the parents NOT because it is a "dirty Mexican Anchor baby" but because the child belongs with its parents. Post deportation, that child, as an American citizen is welcome back to enjoy their birth right at anytime.

I basically believe the same thing. The only difference is I don't believe the way the child is handled should be automatic. The parents should be able to decide if their child gets deported with them or remains here as a ward of the state.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by shmike

I can get behind that logic.

The flip side to that coin though is that if it happened, you'd have certain people screaming that a "legal citizen has been deported!" or "What right does the government have to decide if the child must stay with his parents" and then you get back to the GTFO vs ward of the state argument.

The State doesn't decide. The parents are given the option of letting their child, who is a US citizen, stay. If they would rather keep their child with them, then so be it.

And Paul, the fact that an anchor baby is given SOME weight is, to many, too much weight.

As to reasons why some illegals should be permitted to stay, that has a name; refugee plea. Recently Mexican illegals have taken to stating that the drug war in their country puts them in fear for their lives. Should that be a valid reason?

[shmike]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

The State doesn't decide. The parents are given the option of letting their child, who is a US citizen, stay. If they would rather keep their child with them, then so be it.

And Paul, the fact that an anchor baby is given SOME weight is, to many, too much weight.

As to reasons why some illegals should be permitted to stay, that has a name; refugee plea. Recently Mexican illegals have taken to stating that the drug war in their country puts them in fear for their lives. Should that be a valid reason?

I agree 1000% with all the above.

My inferring that the state decides was based on Paul's example that the "child would be deported because they should be with their parents."

[Amorok]

I'm a simple man and have simple opinions. If I invite you to my house for dinner, you may stay until I'm ready for you to leave. If you don't leave when it's time, I will make you leave. If you fremember at 2 AM that you forgot your lighter, you cannot come back and get it, you get it when it's convenient to me. It's not my fault you forgot your lighter. If you attempt to enter my house when not invited, I will hurt you unitl you no longer desire or are unable to enter my house.

Let me translate: If you come into our country legally and your visa expire, you should be made to leave. If you got pregnant while you are here then you can take your baby with you, give it up for adoption or let it become a ward of the state. Birth control comes with directions in Spanish and it's not my fault you couldn't stop fucking. If you try to cross our border it is more than appropriate that we do everything we can think of to prevent you from doing so. If you left your kid here, we will determine when you get the child back.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but just because your life would be better here doesn't automatically mean you can up and come here. I understand the desire to do so, but that's not the way it works. Criminal, civil, all of this is obfuscatory bullshit - if you shouldn't be here, you need to leave. If this impacts your baby's life then you should have thought of that first. Millions of couples are on adoption lists and I'm sure Angelina will adopt your baby.

And as for the reconquistadores or however you spell it, sure, we took your land. Until such time as you have the means to reclaim it by the same means and subsequently hold said land, we make the rules. Tough breaks. I don't care if it's legal or right and wrong, my concern is hospitals going bankrupt because of uninsured illegal immigrants abusing emergency services. I would think in a time of unprecedented national debt and expenditures an ever numerically increasing group who use our public services while putting no resource to continue them back into the system would be an easy decision. I also think that in a post 911 world the question of whether or not we allow a border to be porous to anyone who wishes to cross it without any sort of hindrance, regardless of their intentions or affiliations, is a stupid one. Sorry for the kids but maybe if their parents were better at their jobs this wouldn't come up.

And is the legal immigration process shitty? Sure it is. But so is the process for me to pay off my mortgage, and yet I still keep paying it. Stop justifying such obvious bullshit and take a stand.

[Homeslice]

My biggest pet peeve is, if you are going to come here and reap the advantages of living in the US, including higher salaries, more freedom, less crime, more educational opportunites, healthier living condiitons.........Then you should at least show some respect and common courtesy......And yes, maybe even some gratitude.

Instead, so many of them adopt an entitlement complex, where they yap on and on about how Whitey stole their land, or how our economy couldn't survive without them, etc. etc. Granted I'm a little biased since I used to live in San Diego and Denver, two heavily-Hispanic cities where I observed a lot of that behavior, but there it is. How about keeping your head down and focused on taking advantage of the opportunites thsi country offers. Like most Asian immigrants do.

The impression I got was that a lot of them make little effort to work towards a long-term future in America. I'd like to know the exact statistics, but a substantial portion of them go back home after a few years of making some money. Compare that with most Asian immigrants, the majority of whom plan on staying here for good. Coupled with the much higher emphasis they put on education, instead of letting their kids fuck around and hang out in the parking lot all the time.