Minor Winter Project - installing suspension worth 1/3 of the bike

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

It's worth doing after maybe 5 years, after the stock lines have started to give under pressure, but really not with a newish bike.

To each their own...steel lines are right after the exhaust for me on a new bike.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

To each their own...steel lines are right after the exhaust for me on a new bike.

Try EBC or SBS sintered pads next time, first.

I tend not to decide on what mods to make until I've actually ridden the bike

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Try EBC or SBS sintered pads next time, first.

I tend not to decide on what mods to make until I've actually ridden the bike

Do I smell an insult? I do replace the pads as well (I'm running Ferodo now but I also like Dunlopad, I've often used EBC/SBS pads in the past) and I do ride a bike before I modify it... The experience of owning about 10 bikes tells me that I like steel lines and sintered pads on the brakes. Regardless of how good you think your brakes are, steel lines make them better. An opinion of course but one shared by most serious riders. You take pictures of racers, how many still use the stock brake lines? None that I know...

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

Do I smell an insult? I do replace the pads as well (I'm running Ferodo now but I also like Dunlopad, I've often used EBC/SBS pads in the past) and I do ride a bike before I modify it... The experience of owning about 10 bikes tells me that I like steel lines and sintered pads on the brakes. Regardless of how good you think your brakes are, steel lines make them better. An opinion of course but one shared by most serious riders. You take pictures of racers, how many still use the stock brake lines? None that I know...

Not an insult; just a comment on how so many riders seem to toss a pipe on the bike without even knowing how it performs or sounds.

I used to think that about braided lines too. Then I did the math by checking out the expansion numbers on the various types of lines. Compared to new regular rubber lines there really isn't a whole lot of objective performance increase, when you consider the minimal amount of pressure that the human hand is capable of applying.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Not an insult; just a comment on how so many riders seem to toss a pipe on the bike without even knowing how it performs or sounds.

I used to think that about braided lines too. Then I did the math by checking out the expansion numbers on the various types of lines. Compared to new regular rubber lines there really isn't a whole lot of objective performance increase, when you consider the minimal amount of pressure that the human hand is capable of applying.

well, I always swap out the pipe... I like the noise and the look period. I don't know anyone, other than you guys that doesn't say that steel lines have better feel and less fade... To each their own. I know quite a few "fast" street guys that think the stock suspension is "good enough" for the street so... No Worries is the fastest guy on lookout mountain with an old CBR with a stock suspension... You say that suspension mods are "necessary" and I say that brake mods are "necessary", since I'm paying for the mods on my bike and you're paying for the mods on your bike, I guess we're both right.

[Papa_Complex]

Nope, I don't say that suspension mods are necessary. I say that you get more benefit out of them, on the street, than you do power mods.

On the brake lines issue the next time you get a new bike, try out the stock brakes for a while, then swap out just the pads. I did that maybe 10 years ago and found that I got the same results that I expected from a pad AND line swap. I'd just never done pads only, until then.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Nope, I don't say that suspension mods are necessary. I say that you get more benefit out of them, on the street, than you do power mods.

On the brake lines issue the next time you get a new bike, try out the stock brakes for a while, then swap out just the pads. I did that maybe 10 years ago and found that I got the same results that I expected from a pad AND line swap. I'd just never done pads only, until then.

Okay, I may act like it but I'm not a newb I have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on bikes. I have replaced just the pads, especially before bikes came with HH pads stock. I know that lots of bikes come with wacky pads for reasons unknown to me. I like VERY tight brakes, ask Eric, when he rode my bike on Blood Mountain I'm sure that he noticed. Your brakes are good enough for you with just pads, great. Your bike probably came with somewhat lower spec brakes than mine to begin with. Because of the bike's intended market segment, they purposely use pads with less initial bite to help prevent losing the front. I like the feel I get from steel lines and pads. It's personal preference and I, for one, respect that.

[Papa_Complex]

Yup, to each his own.

Regarding initial bite of the brakes, a friend and I traded bikes for a quick blast, back in July. He has a F800ST and, as stated, I've got a ER6n. After our personal modifications, the ergonomics on our bikes are virtually identical; the only slight difference is in peg position. His bike has incredible brakes, with a ton of initial bite, but his front forks have all the damping of open-cell foam. My brakes don't have anywhere near the same bite, but the stock forks are much better under braking. If I could get the best of both, I'd be quite happy.

Both bikes have damper rod forks.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Yup, to each his own.

Regarding initial bite of the brakes, a friend and I traded bikes for a quick blast, back in July. He has a F800ST and, as stated, I've got a ER6n. After our personal modifications, the ergonomics on our bikes are virtually identical; the only slight difference is in peg position. His bike has incredible brakes, with a ton of initial bite, but his front forks have all the damping of open-cell foam. My brakes don't have anywhere near the same bite, but the stock forks are much better under braking. If I could get the best of both, I'd be quite happy.

Both bikes have damper rod forks.

and are you both the same weight? Did you attempt to adjust his preload? Are you sure that the weight bias is the "same" between these bikes? Do the bikes weigh the same period? Did BMW really have the same intended market segment/intended rider type as Kawasaki? Were the tires the same? Same diameter/type forks? How about low/high speed compression settings? I think that you're comparing Granny Smith the Red Delicious here...

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

and are you both the same weight? Did you attempt to adjust his preload? Are you sure that the weight bias is the "same" between these bikes? Do the bikes weigh the same period? Did BMW really have the same intended market segment/intended rider type as Kawasaki? Were the tires the same? Same diameter/type forks? How about low/high speed compression settings? I think that you're comparing Granny Smith the Red Delicious here...

My friend and I are within 10 pounds of the same weight. I made no attempt at adjusting the BMW, as this was a quick run. The Kawasaki has no adjustment possible on the forks, in stock form, nor does the BMW. Both bikes have damper rod forks. The BMW has 43mm forks. The Kawasaki has 41mm forks. The BMW is listed as 412 pounds and the Kawasaki is 442, dry (bikez.com). The BMW was in stock form, but adjusted as best my ex-amateur racer friend could manage. He had his bike modified with a set of F800S bars. I swapped my stock bars for a set of Renthal low and wide dirtbike bars. This makes the upper body ergos virtually identical, between the two bikes.

My friend had suggested the swap because the ER was on his short list when he bought the BMW. He had never owned a BMW before, so curiosity played a part in his final choice of bike. As I was also considering the F800 series of bikes, when I was making my choice earlier this year, that would tend to make me think that they are aimed largely at the same market segment / rider type. The fact that both are middle-weight parallel twins may have something to do with it.

While I liked the brakes on the BMW, I found the front end dive to be unacceptable. My friend agrees and is debating the expense of sending the forks off to Traxxion.

Just for the hell of it, pics of the F800ST and my ER6n.