Why America's Economy Fell off The Cliff

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Rider

It's both but corporate greed is the main factor. US companies do not pay well enough so that ALL their employees can afford American made products exclusively. In addition to that, American companies are now outsourcing to foreign labor to increase profits. These foreign made products are making their way back to the US because the American consumers can only afford them or at least choose to buy to save money.

Sure, not everybody at every company can afford to buy American made products. I can agree with that. The fact is for a lot of products almost no one buys American. America used to make a lot of furniture. People stopped caring about quality and craftsmanship and only cared about getting a couch for 50-25% of the cost of American furniture. Now America makes almost no furniture, even though a conservative estimate is 25% of Americans can afford it. I don't see how that is corporate greed vs. Americans wanting cheap shit that doesn't last because it costs less.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Rider

They do indirectly control it. You've read about WalMarts pressure to get lower cost items from manufacturers. The manufacturers need to outsource jobs overseas in order to meet WM's strict pricing demands.

Walmart demands lower prices because their customers demand lower prices. Walmart didn't exist when Curtis Mathis went out of business. WM didn't force Microsoft to make the X-Box overseas. They didn't close the Electrolux, General Electric or the furniture plants around Grand Rapids, Mi. It was the Unions and the consumer. American workers demanded higher wages/less work and American consumers demanded lower prices/less corporate profit. Look at the stink it raises when a company posts a profit. Everyone is up in arms, demanding an investigation!

Look at the Union workers picketing their $40,000+/year jobs because the evil company wants to save money on insurance by raising their co-pay to $20/visit. Picketing because the evil company wants to update their equipment to be more efficient and better able to compete. My job took me into factories everyday and I'd see American workers standing around, chit chatting, basically fucking off. Then I see video of factory workers in other countries busting their asses, doing they best they can and even *gasp* trying to do more than the minimum required. It's not hard to see where it all went for me.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by goof2

Sure, not everybody at every company can afford to buy American made products. I can agree with that. The fact is for a lot of products almost no one buys American. America used to make a lot of furniture. People stopped caring about quality and craftsmanship and only cared about getting a couch for 50-25% of the cost of American furniture. Now America makes almost no furniture, even though a conservative estimate is 25% of Americans can afford it. I don't see how that is corporate greed vs. Americans wanting cheap shit that doesn't last because it costs less.

See but that's always the implication, that foreign made products are junk vs American made... it's just not true! In fact motorcycles and cars are a prime example of why this isn't always the case. American made products of this type have been consistently higher priced but lower quality. If it weren't for tariffs and other restrictions, you'd be able to buy a Toyota Camary for under $10,000! The same was true with televisions, stereos, and other electronics. Asia did it better and cheaper. If you consider the Braun, made in China, toothbrush I just purchased to be junk... Well consider what the level of quality would have to be to make an electric toothbrush in this country for the same price. I'd be afraid to use it!

[Rider]

Originally Posted by goof2

Sure, not everybody at every company can afford to buy American made products. I can agree with that. The fact is for a lot of products almost no one buys American. America used to make a lot of furniture. People stopped caring about quality and craftsmanship and only cared about getting a couch for 50-25% of the cost of American furniture. Now America makes almost no furniture, even though a conservative estimate is 25% of Americans can afford it. I don't see how that is corporate greed vs. Americans wanting cheap shit that doesn't last because it costs less.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Walmart demands lower prices because their customers demand lower prices. Walmart didn't exist when Curtis Mathis went out of business. WM didn't force Microsoft to make the X-Box overseas. They didn't close the Electrolux, General Electric or the furniture plants around Grand Rapids, Mi. It was the Unions and the consumer. American workers demanded higher wages/less work and American consumers demanded lower prices/less corporate profit. Look at the stink it raises when a company posts a profit. Everyone is up in arms, demanding an investigation!

Look at the Union workers picketing their $40,000+/year jobs because the evil company wants to save money on insurance by raising their co-pay to $20/visit. Picketing because the evil company wants to update their equipment to be more efficient and better able to compete. My job took me into factories everyday and I'd see American workers standing around, chit chatting, basically fucking off. Then I see video of factory workers in other countries busting their asses, doing they best they can and even *gasp* trying to do more than the minimum required. It's not hard to see where it all went for me.

I see exactly what both of you guys are saying and I agree for the most part. US consumers have grown to love cheap shit. Why did that happen? Because US manufacturers were charging a premium for quality stuff. Their employees demanded higher wages. In order to keep profits up they kept raising the prices on their goods. People got fed up with paying top dollar and decided cheaper was a better option. Why? because their employers were not paying them a salary that allowed to to afford high quality goods. So the birth of globalization occurred in order to keep operating profits high.
It's all about profit and keeping the shareholders happy. Always has been, always will be. Corporate greed or consumer greed ? Doesn't matter, it was still greed that is fucking up the economy.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

See but that's always the implication, that foreign made products are junk vs American made... it's just not true! In fact motorcycles and cars are a prime example of why this isn't always the case. American made products of this type have been consistently higher priced but lower quality. If it weren't for tariffs and other restrictions, you'd be able to buy a Toyota Camary for under $10,000! The same was true with televisions, stereos, and other electronics. Asia did it better and cheaper. If you consider the Braun, made in China, toothbrush I just purchased to be junk... Well consider what the level of quality would have to be to make an electric toothbrush in this country for the same price. I'd be afraid to use it!

I was specifically talking about furniture when I said cheap shit that doesn't last. Most of the Asian furniture I see is all particle board covered in laminate. That stuff doesn't hold up and can't be refinished or effectively repaired after it breaks. American made furniture is typically made from a solid hardwood. It also typically lasts a long time and can be refinished once it starts looking beat up.

I agree with you on most other products, especially consumer electronics and cars. They cost less and are just as, if not more, reliable.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Rider

I see exactly what both of you guys are saying and I agree for the most part. US consumers have grown to love cheap shit. Why did that happen? Because US manufacturers were charging a premium for quality stuff. Their employees demanded higher wages. In order to keep profits up they kept raising the prices on their goods. People got fed up with paying top dollar and decided cheaper was a better option. Why? because their employers were not paying them a salary that allowed to to afford high quality goods. So the birth of globalization occurred in order to keep operating profits high.
It's all about profit and keeping the shareholders happy. Always has been, always will be. Corporate greed or consumer greed ? Doesn't matter, it was still greed that is fucking up the economy.

Yes, amazingly enough companies do try to make more than they spend. I don't consider that greed, and even if it is, the alternative is a less attractive option.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Rider

I see exactly what both of you guys are saying and I agree for the most part. US consumers have grown to love cheap shit. Why did that happen? Because US manufacturers were charging a premium for quality stuff. Their employees demanded higher wages. In order to keep profits up they kept raising the prices on their goods. People got fed up with paying top dollar and decided cheaper was a better option. Why? because their employers were not paying them a salary that allowed to to afford high quality goods. So the birth of globalization occurred in order to keep operating profits high.
It's all about profit and keeping the shareholders happy. Always has been, always will be. Corporate greed or consumer greed ? Doesn't matter, it was still greed that is fucking up the economy.

Hey I can't argue about greed with my dozen helmets, three big screen tvs, clothes/shoes I don't ever wear, etc. See but that's my point, in a way. Why exactly does every non-high school graduate pushing a broom at GM "deserve" to own a new car? For example, you have a pool table in your basement. Do you need it? How many rifles do you already own? Did you need a new one? We are all guilty. Hell, the only thing that will take us off of this entitlement merry-go-round is a depression to reset our sensibilities and expectations.IMHO

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by goof2

I was specifically talking about furniture when I said cheap shit that doesn't last. Most of the Asian furniture I see is all particle board covered in laminate. That stuff doesn't hold up and can't be refinished or effectively repaired after it breaks. American made furniture is typically made from a solid hardwood. It also typically lasts a long time and can be refinished once it starts looking beat up.

I agree with you on most other products, especially consumer electronics and cars. They cost less and are just as, if not more, reliable.

I'm from Grand Rapids, Mi "The Furniture Capital of the World" , trust me when I say that we lost the furniture and piano industry WAY before Chinese imports and particle board.

[smileyman]

Whats we got here is one of those chicken and egg situations. Was it corporate greed and poor domestic quality that caused consumers to cheap out, or was it overburdened middle class consumers getting fleeced by hi prices and their own gotta have it now attitudes that brought us here? does it matter in the end. Nah, there will be an equilibrium, a redistribution of wealth, perhaps globally and the cycle will start over...

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by smileyman

Whats we got here is one of those chicken and egg situations. Was it corporate greed and poor domestic quality that caused consumers to cheap out, or was it overburdened middle class consumers getting fleeced by hi prices and their own gotta have it now attitudes that brought us here? does it matter in the end. Nah, there will be an equilibrium, a redistribution of wealth, perhaps globally and the cycle will start over...

Truth! A reset like the great depression.