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Homeslice · 01-21-2010, 01:54 PM

NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer Ray Lilley, Associated Press Writer Thu Jan 21, 6:07 am ET

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Australia also said Thursday its military used the sights and was now assessing what to do.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint targets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

"We all know of the religious tensions around this issue and it's unwise to do anything that could be seen to raise tensions in an unnecessary way," he said.

Trijicon said it has been long-standing company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company had never received complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice.

The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

The Australian Defense Department, which with 1,550 troops in Afghanistan is the largest contributor to that campaign outside NATO, said Thursday that it also used the sights but had been "unaware of the significance of the manufacturer's serial number."

"The Department of Defense is very conscious of the sensitivities associated with this issue and is assessing how to address these as soon as practicable," the department said in a statement.

Trip · 01-21-2010, 02:00 PM

So basically they need to redo the serial number and make the bible number code more complicated to figure out, so jarheads can't figure that shit out.

Homeslice · 01-21-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

So basically they need to redo the serial number and make the bible number code more complicated to figure out, so jarheads can't figure that shit out.

Or just not put it in at all. I mean really, I understand some people have a hobby or belief that they think is great, but why do other people need to be exposed to it?

This is one of those situations where one person's decision makes things difficult for thousands or millions of others. All so that he (the owner of the company) could jerk off on the idea that his beliefs were being broadcast (in a way) to thousands of soliers.

One of the rules of business is, you don't do anything that risks bad PR if it doesn't benefit you in any way. How has this benefitted his company?

Trip · 01-21-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeslice

How has this benefitted his company?

Maybe he doesn't do this to benefit his company, but the spread his belief. It's pointless to us, but to him it's his way of expressing his belief. Just like Chick-fil-a being closed on sundays pisses me off and causes inconvenience for me, it's the owner's freedom to do what he wants with his company. It's up to us as buyers not to buy the shit if we got a problem with it.

Homeslice · 01-21-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

Maybe he doesn't do this to benefit his company, but the spread his belief. It's pointless to us, but to him it's his way of expressing his belief. Just like Chick-fil-a being closed on sundays pisses me off and causes inconvenience for me, it's the owner's freedom to do what he wants with his company. It's up to us as buyers not to buy the shit if we got a problem with it.

But at least people know in advance that Chick-fil-A is closed on Sundays. In this situation however, the Pentagon didn't know until after the guns were produced.

You can bet that if the Pentagon knew he was gonna do this before they signed the contract, they never would have. But now that the word has gotten out, they're stuck making up excuses why they don't think his codes are against the rules (even though they are).

Trip · 01-21-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeslice

But at least people know in advance that Chick-fil-A is closed on Sundays. In this situation however, the Pentagon didn't know until after the guns were produced.

You can bet that if the Pentagon knew he was gonna do this before they signed the contract, they never would have. But now that the word has gotten out, they're stuck making up excuses why they don't think his codes are against the rules (even though they are).

true, i wouldn't make up an excuse, i would just laugh and say got ya bitches.

It won't be the last time someone hoodwinks the government.

Homeslice · 01-21-2010, 09:43 PM

(CNN) -- A manufacturer that has been inscribing Bible references on rifle sights used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan announced Thursday that it will stop putting scripture references on products the U.S. military uses.

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of United States Central Command, said Wednesday -- apparently before learning of the company's announcement -- that the references were a "big concern" to the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps, which have contracts for the scopes.

"I hope you can sense ... this is of serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it can indeed create a perception that is absolutely contrary to what it is that we have sought to do," he said.

He said U.S. troops are much more sensitive "about this kind of thing," apparently, than is the contractor involved.

On its Web site Wednesday, the Muslim Public Affairs Council said the references "feed into the violent extremists' narrative that the ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are a 'crusade against Islam.' "

Trijicon Inc., the manufacturer, said in a written statement that it has "offered to voluntarily stop putting references to scripture on all products manufactured for the U.S. military -- and will provide, free of charge, 100 modification kits to the Pentagon to enable the removal of the references that are already on products that are currently deployed."

There was no immediate reaction from the Pentagon in response to the announcement, but a response was being prepared, Maj. Shawn Turner in the Department of Defense's public affairs office told CNN.

The Marine Corps said it was "concerned" when it learned about the biblical references.

"We are making every effort to remove these markings from all of our scopes and will ensure that all future procurement of these scopes will not have these types of markings," it said in a written statement.

"We will remove the markings from the scopes currently delivered. Trijicon will also remove the markings from all scopes that have not been delivered."

Dave · 01-21-2010, 09:50 PM

yay 90% of the army that sucks. you guys rawk!

Homeslice · 01-21-2010, 09:52 PM

lol wut

Dave · 01-21-2010, 10:02 PM

the us army only has about 10% combat troops. everything else is support of some sort. THATS where the nonsense comes from, combat guys couldnt care less if the scope said "im a homo" on the side

01-21-2010, 01:54 PM	#31
Homeslice Elitist Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Moto: Gix 750 Posts: 11,351	NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer Ray Lilley, Associated Press Writer Thu Jan 21, 6:07 am ET WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday. The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws. Australia also said Thursday its military used the sights and was now assessing what to do. Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book. New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops. "The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate." The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint targets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number. Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible. The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads. Dunne said New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind. New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment. "Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters. Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued. "We all know of the religious tensions around this issue and it's unwise to do anything that could be seen to raise tensions in an unnecessary way," he said. Trijicon said it has been long-standing company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company had never received complaints until now. "We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'" Trijicon said biblical references were first put on the sites nearly 30 years ago by the company founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, continued the practice. The references have stoked concerns by critics in the U.S. about whether they break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But U.S. military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought. The Australian Defense Department, which with 1,550 troops in Afghanistan is the largest contributor to that campaign outside NATO, said Thursday that it also used the sights but had been "unaware of the significance of the manufacturer's serial number." "The Department of Defense is very conscious of the sensitivities associated with this issue and is assessing how to address these as soon as practicable," the department said in a statement. Last edited by Homeslice; 01-21-2010 at 01:58 PM..

01-21-2010, 09:43 PM	#37
Homeslice Elitist Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Moto: Gix 750 Posts: 11,351	(CNN) -- A manufacturer that has been inscribing Bible references on rifle sights used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan announced Thursday that it will stop putting scripture references on products the U.S. military uses. Gen. David Petraeus, commander of United States Central Command, said Wednesday -- apparently before learning of the company's announcement -- that the references were a "big concern" to the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps, which have contracts for the scopes. "I hope you can sense ... this is of serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it can indeed create a perception that is absolutely contrary to what it is that we have sought to do," he said. He said U.S. troops are much more sensitive "about this kind of thing," apparently, than is the contractor involved. On its Web site Wednesday, the Muslim Public Affairs Council said the references "feed into the violent extremists' narrative that the ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are a 'crusade against Islam.' " Trijicon Inc., the manufacturer, said in a written statement that it has "offered to voluntarily stop putting references to scripture on all products manufactured for the U.S. military -- and will provide, free of charge, 100 modification kits to the Pentagon to enable the removal of the references that are already on products that are currently deployed." There was no immediate reaction from the Pentagon in response to the announcement, but a response was being prepared, Maj. Shawn Turner in the Department of Defense's public affairs office told CNN. The Marine Corps said it was "concerned" when it learned about the biblical references. "We are making every effort to remove these markings from all of our scopes and will ensure that all future procurement of these scopes will not have these types of markings," it said in a written statement. "We will remove the markings from the scopes currently delivered. Trijicon will also remove the markings from all scopes that have not been delivered." Last edited by Homeslice; 01-21-2010 at 09:46 PM..

01-21-2010, 09:50 PM	#38
Dave Chaotic Neutral Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cherry Hill NJ Moto: GV1200 Madura, Hawk gt Posts: 13,992	yay 90% of the army that sucks. you guys rawk! __________________ TWF Post whore #6

01-21-2010, 10:02 PM	#40
Dave Chaotic Neutral Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cherry Hill NJ Moto: GV1200 Madura, Hawk gt Posts: 13,992	the us army only has about 10% combat troops. everything else is support of some sort. THATS where the nonsense comes from, combat guys couldnt care less if the scope said "im a homo" on the side __________________ TWF Post whore #6

01-21-2010, 09:52 PM	#39
Homeslice Elitist Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Moto: Gix 750 Posts: 11,351	lol wut