Bling vs Bang

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by OTB

And for most folks, that's OK, too.

A properly sprung and set up bike is about 90% as good as it gets....

The only folks who really NEED that other 10% are the guys who ride at 99%... the ones who find their forks chattering, or rear tire tearing or hopping on the rough stuff, or pushing the front end.

Or who load there bikes heavy for long distances.

Or who want a softer, more compliant ride with control.

Or , who've set their bike up properly and find it still is starting tankslappers on bumpy exits.

Or who are lighter than the theoretical "average" and get tired of harsh response even with a custom spring on those 500 miles backroad days........





Ps: lighter riders really do get the worst of it; most jap bikes are overdamped on compression, and a lot of harshness gets transmitted to lighter riders.

Okay and you call Race Tech, spend a couple hundred and get the forks/shock re-valved or you change the oil weight... BTW if you are getting tank slappers on the street on a re-sprung and "correctly set up" bike...Well, I'm not sure what modern bike you're talking about but have you ever heard of a steering damper? Seriously, what street riding requires a $5,000 set of Ohlins suspension components?

[OTB]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

Okay and you call Race Tech, spend a couple hundred and get the forks/shock re-valved or you change the oil weight... BTW if you are getting tank slappers on the street on a re-sprung and "correctly set up" bike...Well, I'm not sure what modern bike you're talking about but have you ever heard of a steering damper? Seriously, what street riding requires a $5,000 set of Ohlins suspension components?

Who said you need to buy Ohlins? Not me. And I didn't say just "on the street".

What you said was "I replace the springs to match my weight and adjust the pre-load, etc and leave it alone after that." That's fine. For you. And your bike. For where you ride.

Sportbikes aren't the only bikes in the world...

About half of the suspension work we do is on touring, SM and standards with people who have specific issues. Unless someone has deep pockets and a need for bling, I try to talk folks into Racetech, Elka or Penske (1/2 the price of Ohlins) for the rear and Racetech g2-r ($179) and a correct spring set for the front.

That and a sag set and dialing in comp and rebound front and rear will do it for most.

The other half of the work we do is split pretty evenly between WERA and AMA guys doing serious racing, and everyday riders who split their riding between street and track and are finding the limits of what they have in a stock set-up during their trackdays. Not everybody has more than one bike, and for some, they "need" the versatility that a top-notch set-up brings to the table. That set-up might be a $2600 Ohlins fork, or it might be a new cartridge from one of the other folks (about 1/2 the price).

Note that the title of this thread was "Bling vs Bang".

And yes, sarcasm aside, I've heard of a "steering damper", and a steering damper fixes the symptom, not the problem...it's what you go to after all else fails. If you've never been to a high-speed track that's had the lines on the exits to the turns rippled from high HP (1000+) slick-shod race cars the week before, you wouldn't appreciate the need to use equipment that has separate high and low speed damping adjustments and the absolute difference that a REALLY well set up system can make.

I realize that most folks think that performance increases should be "formulaic"; i.e. the bike does THIS, so change THAT...at the limits of the envelope it seldom is so, ergo my initial post...

[Amber Lamps]

Yea that was too many words for me... Basically, did you say "yes they do"? To each their own. Fwiw I was actually debating suspension with someone else initially so...

[the chi]

As far as modding goes, I have to say I am perfectly happy with my bike bone stock. Obviously the engineers knew what they were doing when they built it and I see no reason to spend a fortune "fixing" something that doesnt need it in the first place. I find that's primarily a male fixation...BUT after having my suspension adjusted for me personally a few years ago, I can say that I do appreciate the ride better when it's specified for me, and not your average size male of at least 150 lbs. I get it reset every so often, and I can definitely tell the difference between my suspension set up and that of another bike. The CBR I'm scooting around with lately is most definitely NOT at a good adjustment for me. Feels like I'm riding a dirtbike.

[smileyman]

I find it amusing in observing a talented rider that can go fast on a stock bike, with little but a nod to preload.

Obviously when your racing every little nuance counts and is something you want working for you, but I see skilled riders push OEM goods to the limits and realize that no matter what performance envelope you have built into your machine, if you cant access it skill wise, why install it to begin with?

Case in point being the expert coaches at the Pridmore Star School riding stock GSXR600 and SV 650s while teaching some students on prepped suspensions.

One caveat tho, It is easier for a student rider to learn how a bike performs and is suppose to give feedback on a well set up machine. As through the proper feedback and inputs he deals with it is easier for him to learn about how fast really is supposed to feel

[OTB]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

Yea that was too many words for me... Basically, did you say "yes they do"? To each their own. Fwiw I was actually debating suspension with someone else initially so...

Was that like "Whatevarrrrrrrr!"

[Rangerscott]

He probably wanted his HP to be over....

[Homeslice]

Originally Posted by smileyman

Obviously when your racing every little nuance counts and is something you want working for you, but I see skilled riders push OEM goods to the limits and realize that no matter what performance envelope you have built into your machine, if you cant access it skill wise, why install it to begin with?

Just because a pro racer can go faster on a stock bike, doesn't mean an amateur won't improve his times if he installs an aftermarket suspension.

Bottom line is, it's all about making someone more confident.......Who cares what other people do.

[smileyman]

Valid point! That's why I added the caveat. Your right, who cares what other folks do, it's all about dialing in your ride for your style and application.
The thread had become a little watered done from Bling v. Bang. If everyone rode only just what they could use we'd all have Hyosung 250s.

[itgirl]

Originally Posted by OTB

I spend a lot of time talking to people who want to know which shock, tuning system, pipe, leathers or fork kit is "best". I talk to a lot more who want their bikes tuned for the "most power".

My response is always the same: I ask a litany of questions about themselves physically, about their riding experience, about their use of the bike and about what they mean by "best" or "most". Sometimes, people get impatient and interrupt me and ask what this all has to do with the initial question.

One thing I've learned is that EVERYBODY is different, and so are their wants and needs.

Another thing I've learned is that every manufacturer of bikes, performance parts and gear has a different philosophy about about what constitutes better performance and takes different paths to get there.

The last thing I've learned is that "performance" is achieved through a series of compromises; that physics is physics and you can't fool mother nature and you don't get a free ride. What I mean by that is that for every decision to take a particular performance path, you need to give up something, be it longevity, ease of service, weight, comfort, expense, convenience.....yada yada yada.... and that that's ok, as long as everybody understands what the tradeoffs are.

One of the dangers in building "high performance" machinery is that you, the builder get all done with the project as you see it and the customer comes back with, "It's nice, BUT....".

Example.

I had a fellow last week who wanted his track (not RACE) bike tuned for maximum top end power, didn't CARE about the cost of "Race Gas" (another topic all together), just whatever it took with the stock motor to get the best top end. Wanted us to use a couple very expensive different blends of race gas to get the "BEST" top end on the dyno. That process involved many (like 6-8) hours of dyno testing (expensive!).

For his bike, we settled on VP MR12 (high octane, very detonation resistant on lean mixtures and lots of advance, plus, it made the same horsepower as another blend but the bike ran cooler). Gave him the results and he paid to have another couple of hours done to get a custom map done for all throttle positions in all gears..another couple of hours on the dyno.

He came to pick the bike up and the tech was finishing draining and flushing his fuel system (did I mention that this stuff is highly corrosive to fuel fittings and the like, and that if left in the bike more than a few days will trash fuel pumps, injectors , ect? It even says so in big lettering on the cans of fuel he brought us to do the testing).

Anyway, after he finished getting the paperwork, dyno charts and map copies (we copy the maps for our customers in case theer is a glitch and they are out of town and need in remapped to the ecu or fuel unit)he wanted to know why were draining the tank, I told him about the need to not store the bike with race gas in it.

He blew a cork.

"I have to do this every time I'm finished running the bike?"

Yep, only if you don't want to be rebuilding the system every other week.

He wanted a refund, said nobody told him about the fuels' properties, didn't wanna do that and wasn't going to pay.....

Remember, he brought HIS fuel to us....but never did read the lables...just wanted MAX POWER.....

Anyway, when I explained to him that we did this work at his specific direction, and that without payment he wouldn't be using his bike that weekend, he relented.

But he wasn't happy EVEN THOUGH WE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE ASKED.







Sometimes you don't know what's important till it's gone.

Life is a series of trade offs..........do your research, ask questions.

OTB, did you explain all this to him before starting the work? i understand it is up to the individual to do research, but if i am bringing my bike to a mechanic i expect them to be able to explain things to me. after all, if i was the expert i would be doing it myself, not paying someone to do it for me. you may have done exactly what he asked, but to do it without complete explanation is slightly negligent on your part. we are simple people, you must make us understand. then if we insist on forging ahead it will be our own stupid fault if it doesn't work out.