Go buy an MV Agusta now....

[Rider]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

To be honest tho',my guess is that HD is looking to sell more bikes over there rather than bring more bikes over here.

Good point. But if they can bring the price down on the MV, they could sell more of those... How they go about that I have no idea.

[Cutty72]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

Except Mazda's, Jaguar's, and Volvo's are all built on Ford platforms. In this example, the host company cloned their product under the acquired smaller companies' names.

Not saying that will happen (hope not). If it doesn't and more advanced tech shows up on Harleys, than I'm all for it and love the idea. If it goes the way of Ford, say goodbye to a nice Italian brand.

Not ALL mazda's are on ford platforms... in fact, only the Mazda 6 (Fusion) and the B series pickup (Ranger) share a platform with Ford.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

Harley Davidson is what happens when you take a company at the pinnacle of technological advancement and hit it in the soft spot with a hammer.

They've never had to evolve because their core buyer was buying "classic".

They understand the market for their cruisers. They understand that they don't know jack about sport bikes. Buell had to sell enough bikes to justify the expense of the Rotax development. You will see a continued movement away of Buell from Harley Davidson technologically.

You will not see HD tech on an MV Augusta or a Buell.

You might see MV Augusta and Buell tech on a Harley, though.


This is strictly a surface area/market exposure move. My guess is that there will be three distinct divisions, HD, Buell, MV Augusta.

Think Ford, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo.

BAD example,I'm sure someone else pointed this out but Ford has run the Jag name into the ground. In fact in car terms,I've yet to see an American company buy a smaller foreign maker and have it be an improvement of the smaller brand's quality/design.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

Except Mazda's, Jaguar's, and Volvo's are all built on Ford platforms. In this example, the host company cloned their product under the acquired smaller companies' names.

Not saying that will happen (hope not). If it doesn't and more advanced tech shows up on Harleys, than I'm all for it and love the idea. If it goes the way of Ford, say goodbye to a nice Italian brand.

Yeah, but those cloned platforms were all for nearly the same type of car (sedans, coupes, etc.).

I'm pretty sure that there won't be a single frame for all purposes. Then we'd be back to the UJM days. Want a cruiser, here are a set of buckhorns. Want a club racer, here are a set of clip ons. Want a standard, that's how they came from the factory.

There are virtually no shared parts between Buell and HD. Those that are shared are mainly fasteners and washers. I was missing a T27 body panel bolt. I called the local HD shop and they said that they didn't have a single bolt that would fit. I said "nothing?".

"Nope".

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Overall I like the idea but to say that this will bring in American jobs is a bit optimistic. The new Buell is maybe 20% American made. They don't buy American made parts for their "American" sportbike. Why would HD cut out the current vendors,whom to my knowledge,provide MV with excellent parts and start sourcing parts here in the U.S.? How could it possibly be more cost effective for them to buy parts here instead of all the producers in Europe. Besides,MV and Cagiva produce approximately 5000 bikes a year. You'd have to be pretty hard up as a parts manufacturer to pay for all the Cad/Cam and die costs for that few parts. Plus you'd still have to sell them at a price LOWER than they are getting them currently.

The biggest positive for me is the possibility that MVs could become easier for us to purchase and maintain with a larger dealer network behind them. To be honest tho',my guess is that HD is looking to sell more bikes over there rather than bring more bikes over here.

Buell is working to source parts domestically. The frame for the XBs was produced in Italy. The 1125R frames are sourced in the US now. The XB engines were produced in Milwaukee. The Rotax engines will be sourced in Austria. Eventually, engine production will go the way of Aprilia and be brought in house. The wheels are still produced by Enkei in China.

I agree completely that the play is for territory in Europe, but there will be benefits here as well. I'd have to imagine that there would be some price savings for MV's coming here. If there may be a reduction on import duties as well as benefits in exchange rates. I suspect that MV will remain largely unchanged.

Now if they could just get the "potato, potato, potato" out of the harleys and get the cacophony of F4 auditory sex into their Harleys. That would be a feat!

Originally Posted by TIGGER

BAD example,I'm sure someone else pointed this out but Ford has run the Jag name into the ground. In fact in car terms,I've yet to see an American company buy a smaller foreign maker and have it be an improvement of the smaller brand's quality/design.

Saab. Opel. Volvo.


Look at the quality of these vehicles prior to being taken over. Granted none of them have become Honda or Toyota, but they are much better than they were prior to purchase.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

Yeah, but those cloned platforms were all for nearly the same type of car (sedans, coupes, etc.).

I'm pretty sure that there won't be a single frame for all purposes. Then we'd be back to the UJM days. Want a cruiser, here are a set of buckhorns. Want a club racer, here are a set of clip ons. Want a standard, that's how they came from the factory.

There are virtually no shared parts between Buell and HD. Those that are shared are mainly fasteners and washers. I was missing a T27 body panel bolt. I called the local HD shop and they said that they didn't have a single bolt that would fit. I said "nothing?".

"Nope".



Buell is working to source parts domestically. The frame for the XBs was produced in Italy. The 1125R frames are sourced in the US now. The XB engines were produced in Milwaukee. The Rotax engines will be sourced in Austria. Eventually, engine production will go the way of Aprilia and be brought in house. The wheels are still produced by Enkei in China.

I agree completely that the play is for territory in Europe, but there will be benefits here as well. I'd have to imagine that there would be some price savings for MV's coming here. If there may be a reduction on import duties as well as benefits in exchange rates. I suspect that MV will remain largely unchanged.

Now if they could just get the "potato, potato, potato" out of the harleys and get the cacophony of F4 auditory sex into their Harleys. That would be a feat!



Saab. Opel. Volvo.


Look at the quality of these vehicles prior to being taken over. Granted none of them have become Honda or Toyota, but they are much better than they were prior to purchase.

OOPS!! I belong to a long line of "GM" people and I can argue this one forever! But I won't. Suffice it to say that I would like to see some data on these "quality" improvements my friend.

Oh and I've owned two Opels. Both Mantas,a '77 and a '81, both OUTSTANDING cars that were a ball to drive! As far as I know,Opel was an overseas brand name for GM products. They may have been an acquisition many,many years ago like Buick or Pontiac but GM didn't just buy Opel,not in my lifetime anyway. Most of the "Opels" they sell overseas now are just re-badged U.S. models. I don't consider a Malibu Maxx an improvement over the Opel Manta Gt I drove on the Autobahn when I was overseas.

Saab got better after GM bought them? I don't think so. Saabs were renowned for their longevity and lack of maintenance and were considered on par with BMW and Mercedes in the 70s and 80s in Europe. They also had a similar price tag... In fact,Saab was originally an airplane manufacturer and used some of the same motors in their cars back in the day. When I was in Germany during the early 80s,half the Sgts on post were buying Saabs because you were allowed to ship 1 vehicle for free back to the States and you could sell a Saab for double or triple what you paid because they were in demand and hard to get.

I'll give you Volvo because I'm not familiar with that brand personally but I will say that I thought VW owned them along with Porche...

Btw I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism! I daresay that if GM bought BMW you would say that their quality was vastly improved due to their association with GM!

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by itgirl

meanwhile harley cuts 700 jobs in america...

Perhaps if unions would stop demanding $25/hr for a job a trained monkey could do, they wouldn't have to do that.

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

changed the OP. Happy? Good.

My opinion: all the good stuff is wrapped up in the VRSC bikes and a one Sportster that won't even be sold here. Everything else is 1950's tech still (not counting Buell...but HD didn't come up with the innovations for Buell).

If they don't change the MV's, great! All for it. If they do, it'll ruin the MV's.

Throttle by wire is 1950's tech?

Originally Posted by BobTheBiker

Dont get me wrong, HD makes some good stuff, but the pushrod V twin is old still ancient technology. its time to start throwing some more modern stuff in there. all I'm seeing is the same old motors, just fuel injected really and more electronic stuff. no real mechanical improvements in the last what's it been? 20+ years at least?

The engines have been considerably changed over the past 20 years... and they have a bike called VROD that uses newer technology... Now if they can sell more of them than any other bike in their line-up, maybe they'd have motivation to change.

Originally Posted by BobTheBiker

All I'm really saying is I'd LIKE A LOT to see some innovations and use of this modern technology available to us on those Harley motors. They can keep the old school stuff for the fans of classic products, but I'd like a new line of HD motors introduced for those of us who want a cruiser that is modern.

I honestly hope they just keep MV Agusta alive and well, while not really trying to change the bikes. MV makes a very refined and mighty machine that throws down what? 190 to the tire? which is like ZX14 territory with a lot less weight.

Again, they will make what will sell. There's a reason the big four all have push rod v-twins in their line-ups... they sell. People stop wanting the old tech, HD will start creating all sorts of new shit. That's how the VROD came into play... and again, if VROD's start outselling Sportsters, the product line will evolve.

I don't see them doing shit to change anything about MV... Why would they? It works. They leave Buell to do their own thing for the most part so odds are, MV will remain unchanged.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I'll give you Volvo because I'm not familiar with that brand personally but I will say that I thought VW owned them along with Porche...

Btw I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism! I daresay that if GM bought BMW you would say that their quality was vastly improved due to their association with GM!

I only know OPEL and Saab stories from mechanic buddies. I am not as familiar as you are with them. Sounds like I may be way off base.

I'm not a big US auto manufacturer fan. Until recently, they have been largely uncompetitive with lack luster designs and abysmal quality. The UAW and poor management have made them what they are.

VW owns VW, Audi, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, and Skoda.

Porshe has a large stake in VW.

Volvo is definitely Ford. They were sucky before Ford. They are slightly less sucky now.


I'd say that GM purchasing BMW would have same effect as Chrysler buying MB.

Ford and GM are not evil companies nor are they magical in their ability to make acquired companies better. Likewise, I doubt that HD's affiliation with MV will automatically be good or automatically be bad.

One thing that HD has is money. Yes, they layed some employees off, but largely, they were positions that needed to be trimmed regardless.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

I only know OPEL and Saab stories from mechanic buddies. I am not as familiar as you are with them. Sounds like I may be way off base.

I'm not a big US auto manufacturer fan. Until recently, they have been largely uncompetitive with lack luster designs and abysmal quality. The UAW and poor management have made them what they are.

VW owns VW, Audi, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, and Skoda.

Porshe has a large stake in VW.

Volvo is definitely Ford. They were sucky before Ford. They are slightly less sucky now.


I'd say that GM purchasing BMW would have same effect as Chrysler buying MB.

Ford and GM are not evil companies nor are they magical in their ability to make acquired companies better. Likewise, I doubt that HD's affiliation with MV will automatically be good or automatically be bad.

One thing that HD has is money. Yes, they layed some employees off, but largely, they were positions that needed to be trimmed regardless.

Ok I think we're on the same page!

[Audiomechanic]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Perhaps if unions would stop demanding $25/hr for a job a trained monkey could do, they wouldn't have to do that.



Throttle by wire is 1950's tech?

Which typical Harley has fly-by-wire?

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

The engines have been considerably changed over the past 20 years... and they have a bike called VROD that uses newer technology... Now if they can sell more of them than any other bike in their line-up, maybe they'd have motivation to change.

Understood and I mentioned the V-Rod as being the only forward innovation (other than buell) in a number of years. Too bad Harley didn't even design most of the VRSC (the engine anyway).

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Again, they will make what will sell. There's a reason the big four all have push rod v-twins in their line-ups... they sell. People stop wanting the old tech, HD will start creating all sorts of new shit. That's how the VROD came into play... and again, if VROD's start outselling Sportsters, the product line will evolve.

This point is completely valid and makes perfect sense. I agree.

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

I don't see them doing shit to change anything about MV... Why would they? It works. They leave Buell to do their own thing for the most part so odds are, MV will remain unchanged.

Hope you're right.

[marko138]

Any one ever work on a push rod twin? Easy as fuck.


Oh....and the new XR1200 Harley (which America is not getting and is bullshit b/c I'd seriously consider buying it).....there are Buell parts in that engine!