Gas sucks

[Audiomechanic]

Originally Posted by OTB

I think things are going to get much worse.

I agree and it scares the hell out of me.

Let me ask you, OTB, as I'm not an economist, just an average schmuck, what do you realistically expect to happen when/if things get much worse?

You are far more intelligent than I and have more years of wisdom than I. I really do want to know what's coming from anyone who has a realistic view.

[PiZdETS]

If they do a tax holiday (which is ludicrous and ineffective long-term) or prices drop significantly in the next few months, I might buy a large drum, mount it in the truckbed temporarily and spend a couple hundred, maybe a grand to have cheap gas for months at a time. I'd just keep the gas in my backyard, maybe dig a small trench for it. I'm sure that's completely safe and legal right?

I've heard of gas theft skyrocketing, from pumps and from private cars- people bringing a hose and sucking that shit into their car.

It's gonna be like madmax pretty soon.

[OTB]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

I agree and it scares the hell out of me.

Let me ask you, OTB, as I'm not an economist, just an average schmuck, what do you realistically expect to happen when/if things get much worse?

You are far more intelligent than I and have more years of wisdom than I. I really do want to know what's coming from anyone who has a realistic view.

I am not an economist. I am not even particularly smart. I do read a lot.

I don't have a crystal ball.

Energy prices effect the price of EVERYTHING; food ( from the price of fertilizer to the cost of harvest, to the cost of the machines used for harvest to the cost of transpoting that food to the cost of manufacturing and storing that food to the cost of delivering it to the store), ALL manufacturing of anything, transportation, chemicals, phamacueticals,....well, EVERTHING!!

So, if the COST PRODUCING and DELIVERING EVERYTHING goes up, while everything else (like productivity) stays the same; then PRICES WILL GO UP. And, if everything else (like wages) stay the same (and they will have to if there is no increase in productivity) then we will spend more money on EVERYTHING without an increase in income. So people (like you and me) will spend more on essentials (food, housing, utilities, basic transportation), and have less for descretionary items (entertainment, bikes, hobbies, vacations, ect.). So what will happen is a great big shake-out of the entertainment, toy (like motorcycles, atv's, boats, ect) hobbies and the hospitality, service and vacation industries (which employ HALF of all Americans)

You tell ME what you think the results will look like.

[upshift]

Shoot, the U.S. is going down the drain big time. I agree with what OTB is saying, once gas prices get way up you will see a HUGE influx in other items as well. Take the food industry for instance. I work in a grocery store so I see how gas affects that branch of the economy first hand. Ever since gas prices have gone up, I have noticed that there are a substantial amount of people who do not shop as often as they used to. According to my boss, the store income has decreased in the last few months which I believe is because of the high gas prices. And like OTB said, if the American people's income is not adjusted to account for this influx we may be looking at a future where the average person on a decent income is starting to struggle. We may even (God willing) get to a point where two wheels is accepted over four and less and less cars are on the road. Until hybrids and hydrogen/electric vehicles get cheaper that is. Even then, if the income situation isn't resolved, we may be looking at only the wealthy or above average people being able to afford to drive.

I am in no way an animal rights activist nor do I condone the merciless slaughter or forced extinction of certain animals but I believe that if this is not resolved and it gets to be a much more ludicrous situation, we may have to push our environmental feelings aside and start drilling in Anwar.

[Audiomechanic]

Originally Posted by OTB

I am not an economist. I am not even particularly smart. I do read a lot.

I don't have a crystal ball.

Energy prices effect the price of EVERYTHING; food ( from the price of fertilizer to the cost of harvest, to the cost of the machines used for harvest to the cost of transpoting that food to the cost of manufacturing and storing that food to the cost of delivering it to the store), ALL manufacturing of anything, transportation, chemicals, phamacueticals,....well, EVERTHING!!

So, if the COST PRODUCING and DELIVERING EVERYTHING goes up, while everything else (like productivity) stays the same; then PRICES WILL GO UP. And, if everything else (like wages) stay the same (and they will have to if there is no increase in productivity) then we will spend more money on EVERYTHING without an increase in income. So people (like you and me) will spend more on essentials (food, housing, utilities, basic transportation), and have less for descretionary items (entertainment, bikes, hobbies, vacations, ect.). So what will happen is a great big shake-out of the entertainment, toy (like motorcycles, atv's, boats, ect) hobbies and the hospitality, service and vacation industries (which employ HALF of all Americans)

You tell ME what you think the results will look like.

Not good I'd say. Not good at all. I better learn to fish, grow my food, and learn some tactical shooting maneuvers.

Thank you for letting me pick your brain a bit. I, like you, enjoy learning as much as possible.

Originally Posted by upshift

Until hybrids and hydrogen/electric vehicles get cheaper that is.

Hybrids were a scam from the get go. The Prius gets about 40MPG and the Corolla gets about 38 to 40MPG. The ONLY advantage that a hybird has over a regular car is that it doesn't idle at a stop and it can regain a SMALL amount of it's battery upon braking. Other than that, it takes in the exact same energy every other car does: gasoline. So, energy in, energy out. It really is that simple.

[upshift]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

Hybrids were a scam from the get go. The Prius gets about 40MPG and the Corolla gets about 38 to 40MPG. The ONLY advantage that a hybird has over a regular car is that it doesn't idle at a stop and it can regain a SMALL amount of it's battery upon braking. Other than that, it takes in the exact same energy every other car does: gasoline. So, energy in, energy out. It really is that simple.

I see what you're saying but hybrids really do have a leg up on the competition. You're not going to find many strictly gas cars that will do 40mpg BUT you will be able to extract much more energy using gas as a secondary energy source, in theory anyways. If you take a gas engine and use it to create electrical energy to power electric motors, you will no doubt create just as much or less energy than gas alone would. The thing is, however, that in theory, the electrical energy that is produced will be able to go farther than the gas used. So basically:

If 5 gallons of gas are used to create lets say 3 Megawatts of electrical energy, you will probably be able to use that 3 Megawatts for a distance of 120 miles plus that of the energy you can renewbut that 5 gallons may only get you 80 miles. (Note this situation is completely hypothetical)

My point is that the idea is good, its just the technology and the fine tuning that is required to make it work pretty good will not come overnight. Instead it will possibly take years to make it worth the extra money you spend. All in all people who design those cars are just trying to make a gallon of gas go farther. Its almost like creating a perpetual motion device tho; you can only get so close before it just wont work.

[Bassplayer]

im paying 4.12 today

[upshift]

Originally Posted by Bassplayer

im paying 4.12 today

I seriously hope you dont have a big truck to fill up or anything bro

[Audiomechanic]

Originally Posted by upshift

I see what you're saying but hybrids really do have a leg up on the competition. You're not going to find many strictly gas cars that will do 40mpg BUT you will be able to extract much more energy using gas as a secondary energy source, in theory anyways. If you take a gas engine and use it to create electrical energy to power electric motors, you will no doubt create just as much or less energy than gas alone would. The thing is, however, that in theory, the electrical energy that is produced will be able to go farther than the gas used. So basically:

If 5 gallons of gas are used to create lets say 3 Megawatts of electrical energy, you will probably be able to use that 3 Megawatts for a distance of 120 miles plus that of the energy you can renewbut that 5 gallons may only get you 80 miles. (Note this situation is completely hypothetical)

My point is that the idea is good, its just the technology and the fine tuning that is required to make it work pretty good will not come overnight. Instead it will possibly take years to make it worth the extra money you spend. All in all people who design those cars are just trying to make a gallon of gas go farther. Its almost like creating a perpetual motion device tho; you can only get so close before it just wont work.

I agree with you that using a gas engine (diesel would be better) to power a generator to run electric motors would be better, but as far as I know, the gas engine in a hybrid is used to charge the battery AND propel the car forward. The main problem here that I see in a hybrid is weight. They are heavy SOB's due to having an added generator and electric motor plus a giant battery AND keeping a fairly standard drive train setup.

If I were to design one (since I'm not an engineer it's probably best that I don't. ), I would have a small diesel engine that would run at one continuous RPM (which is how a diesel really is supposed to run anyway), which would be it's RPM of peak efficiency, or WOT for a diesel, to turn a generator to power 2 or 4 smaller electric motors mounted centrally along the frame with drive shafts attaching them to each wheel. I see several benefits with this: 1) less weight as the only battery in the car would be for the accessories and starting the diesel engine, 2) less parasitic HP loss due to excessive drive train friction translating to greater efficiency and power output, 3) the diesel engine would run at peak efficiency all the time; only it's load would change, not it's speed. This is how diesel locomotives work and for the work they do, they're pretty darn efficient.

We totally hijacked this thread. Back on track: GAS PRICES SUCK!!! SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR FRUSTRATION!!!! .........I vote the eco-nuts.

Originally Posted by Bassplayer

im paying 4.12 today

[upshift]

Originally Posted by Audiomechanic

I agree with you that using a gas engine (diesel would be better) to power a generator to run electric motors would be better, but as far as I know, the gas engine in a hybrid is used to charge the battery AND propel the car forward. The main problem here that I see in a hybrid is weight. They are heavy SOB's due to having an added generator and electric motor plus a giant battery AND keeping a fairly standard drive train setup.

If I were to design one (since I'm not an engineer it's probably best that I don't. ), I would have a small diesel engine that would run at one continuous RPM (which is how a diesel really is supposed to run anyway), which would be it's RPM of peak efficiency, or WOT for a diesel, to turn a generator to power 2 or 4 smaller electric motors mounted centrally along the frame with drive shafts attaching them to each wheel. I see several benefits with this: 1) less weight as the only battery in the car would be for the accessories and starting the diesel engine, 2) less parasitic HP loss due to excessive drive train friction translating to greater efficiency and power output, 3) the diesel engine would run at peak efficiency all the time; only it's load would change, not it's speed. This is how diesel locomotives work and for the work they do, they're pretty darn efficient.

We totally hijacked this thread. Back on track: GAS PRICES SUCK!!! SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR FRUSTRATION!!!! .........I vote the eco-nuts.

Yeah you have a good point and I agree with you 100%. The only thing is that hybrids do essentially the same thing just on an interval basis rather than a continuous one. I could make some points but for the sake of keeping this thread on topic I will keep my mouth shut It was a good little debate tho.