automotive engineer question - Page 2

Yamerhaw · 08-10-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheBiker

I have to ask, after spending the last week+ working on my 96 s10, and spending about $300ish in parts on it.

is it just me, or are automotive engineers just plain cruel bastards that take pleasure in making those of us who work on a car suffer?

whats your take?
do they lack hands on experience working on the vehicles they make?
are they just stupid and unable to see bad designs?
is it a twisted and sadistic game they enjoy playing with us to watch us suffer and break shit while they get off to it?
all of the above perhaps? hell if I honestly know.

i'm an auto mechanic and ask myself these same questions every day

BobTheBiker · 08-10-2009, 02:58 PM

I knew I wasnt the only sumbitch that asked these questions. graned there ARE a few cars I'm not annoyed by, like my S10 which is but it isnt hard to work on.

Krypt Keeper · 08-10-2009, 03:30 PM

My charger is pretty simple for oil changes. Too bad they didn't think about the crappy lame front suspension that isn't worth $5, yet wanna charge you over $1200 to do the balljoints YOURSELF. That is not taking it to the dealer.

Wifes van is nice to work on. Each oil change makes me wanna trade it in. The oil filter sits above the frame and is a real pain to get to, and all the oil that drains down on the frame and pours like a black/brown waterfall everywhere makes me want to dickpunch some engineer.

I been turning wrenchs since I was 12. I prefer to do all my own work, as I have worked in shops and see how half assed they are.

101lifts2 · 08-10-2009, 05:02 PM

Ahhh...the age old question. I worked as a tech for 3 years, then went to engineering school, then worked for Saturn, GM and now Isuzu all in the Engineering depts.

I will take Saturn as an example. When I worked there, I was put in their service engineering dept.; wrote service manuals and developed diagnostic tools. When a vehicle was being desinged, we had to sign off on the ease of disassembly for parts that I was responsible for. Since I developed the serviceablity for the engine controls, transmission controls and ABS controls I just had to make sure the connectors could be disconnected easily and the sensor removed without having to remove the engine or transmission to do it. I think I only had the design engineers relocate one rear O2 harness so it was easier to disconnect and to keep it from water intrusion.

Most OEMs have a certain level of serviceable to each part as with the suppliers they use. So, you don't want to block the oil drain plug with a cross member, or have to remove a motor mount to replace the fuel filter. Alot of it has to do with plant assembly and engine packaging so an OEM can use a single engine in multiple vehicles. GM did NOT have service engineers go through the vehicles like Saturn, so some stuff was bound to be in a shitty location.

OEMs don't discourage the "do it yourselfers" like you would think. Though, warranty data shows that customers will put the wrong type of ATF fluid (or dealers) overfill transmissions or leave out using rear differential lock up lubricants causing premature failure and increased warranty. Most of the time when something is removed (like a dipstick) is for cost reduction, not stopping someone from working on their own car. GM product engineering was so far from knowing or caring about a dealer making money that it would almost be rediculous to even think a part was taken out so a customer could take his vehicle to a dealer.

And as far as engineers not knowing how to take stuff apart and knowing the "rest" of the vehicle, it is true. I cannot tell you know many A/C design release engineers did not understand how an internal combustion engine operated, let alone how to fix it.

OTOH, the easier it is to replace a component (also shown in warranty data) the more likely a tech will throw it on without diagnosing. Therefore, if you're going to try to reduce warranty by making parts easier to R and R, you have to make better parts.

unknownroad · 08-11-2009, 11:09 AM

Ah yes, changing the oil

2007 Mazda 3 5-door (2.3L). There is a plastic shroud under the engine. It has a cute, oil-filter-sized hole in it. The hole is about six inches away from the actual filter. So, you need to remove 4 of those stupid center-button clips and, IIRC, 8 bolts to remove the underpan, so you can use an Allen wrench to open the filter housing drain, then a specific oil filter wrench to remove the housing. Then take Mr. Dremel and cut a big ghetto-ass hole in the shroud, so you don't have to dick with it next time.

Which, i guess, is why the owner's manual does not give instructions on changing the oil, and just says to take it to the dealer.

pauldun170 · 08-11-2009, 11:37 AM

Ah the days when you could look in the owners manual to get the info you needed for basic maintenance...

Oil pan drain plug location and torque #
Filter location..
light bulb replacement instructions....etc etc

Now it's...

If your vehicle headlamp is out call your dealer
If your oil is low...call your dealer
If the car needs gas call your dealer
If you have vericose veins call your dealer
If you want to activate the left turn signal...call your dealer
If you are unsure of your wifes birthday...call you dealer

marko138 · 08-11-2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rider

Truth. People who buy new cars usually take it back to the place they bought for service generating more revenue for that manufacturer. Why take away some revenue just to make the car easier to work on?.

Another factor is, with so much emissions controls and engine diagnostics, it's hard to fit all that under the hood and still maintain size and weight(fuel economy) standards AND make it roomy enough to easily service.

My wife bought a new Honda Accord last summer. Nice car. Dealer gave us some coupons for service and inspections, etc. when we bought it. Took it to the dealr for it's first service. Cost me like 15 bucks after the coupons. Excellent. Well it's due for it's 10,000 mile oil change and an inspection.

Still have coupons. I tell wife to take it to the dealer. Have coupon for FREE INSPECTION. I assume this does not include the emissions inspection (which it did not).

Final bill...83 FUCKING DOLLARS!

Are you kidding me? With a free inspection you are gonna charge me 83 motherfucking bucks to do an emissions inspection and a goddamn oil change. GET FUCKING BENT HONDA! That car will not ever return to that dealer.

racedoll · 08-11-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101lifts2

And as far as engineers not knowing how to take stuff apart and knowing the "rest" of the vehicle, it is true. I cannot tell you know many A/C design release engineers did not understand how an internal combustion engine operated, let alone how to fix it.

Completely agree. We have design engineers at work with all kinds of degrees and such. They can design/develop one hell of torque converter but you ask them how it all works in the car and they don't have a clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldun170

Ah the days when you could look in the owners manual to get the info you needed for basic maintenance...

Oil pan drain plug location and torque #
Filter location..
light bulb replacement instructions....etc etc

Now it's...

If your vehicle headlamp is out call your dealer
If your oil is low...call your dealer
If the car needs gas call your dealer
If you have vericose veins call your dealer
If you want to activate the left turn signal...call your dealer
If you are unsure of your wifes birthday...call you dealer

Amen! It is quite ridiculous!

BobTheBiker · 08-12-2009, 12:37 AM

My newest complaint: insufficient firewall space for motor/tranny install into my truck. I imagine with the V6 it'd be much harder, but I"m never using that colossal piece of shit so I could give a damn.

But puttng the motor in, you have to fight a very limited engine space with the gearbox on it. its a bit of a pain in my ass. least its DONE.

08-10-2009, 05:02 PM	#14
101lifts2 WSB Champion Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Anaheim, CA Moto: 2009 Kawi ZX6R Posts: 5,570	Ahhh...the age old question. I worked as a tech for 3 years, then went to engineering school, then worked for Saturn, GM and now Isuzu all in the Engineering depts. I will take Saturn as an example. When I worked there, I was put in their service engineering dept.; wrote service manuals and developed diagnostic tools. When a vehicle was being desinged, we had to sign off on the ease of disassembly for parts that I was responsible for. Since I developed the serviceablity for the engine controls, transmission controls and ABS controls I just had to make sure the connectors could be disconnected easily and the sensor removed without having to remove the engine or transmission to do it. I think I only had the design engineers relocate one rear O2 harness so it was easier to disconnect and to keep it from water intrusion. Most OEMs have a certain level of serviceable to each part as with the suppliers they use. So, you don't want to block the oil drain plug with a cross member, or have to remove a motor mount to replace the fuel filter. Alot of it has to do with plant assembly and engine packaging so an OEM can use a single engine in multiple vehicles. GM did NOT have service engineers go through the vehicles like Saturn, so some stuff was bound to be in a shitty location. OEMs don't discourage the "do it yourselfers" like you would think. Though, warranty data shows that customers will put the wrong type of ATF fluid (or dealers) overfill transmissions or leave out using rear differential lock up lubricants causing premature failure and increased warranty. Most of the time when something is removed (like a dipstick) is for cost reduction, not stopping someone from working on their own car. GM product engineering was so far from knowing or caring about a dealer making money that it would almost be rediculous to even think a part was taken out so a customer could take his vehicle to a dealer. And as far as engineers not knowing how to take stuff apart and knowing the "rest" of the vehicle, it is true. I cannot tell you know many A/C design release engineers did not understand how an internal combustion engine operated, let alone how to fix it. OTOH, the easier it is to replace a component (also shown in warranty data) the more likely a tech will throw it on without diagnosing. Therefore, if you're going to try to reduce warranty by making parts easier to R and R, you have to make better parts. __________________ Train Hard Ron Paul - 2012 Mark of Excellence GM Last edited by 101lifts2; 08-10-2009 at 05:09 PM..

08-11-2009, 11:09 AM	#15
unknownroad Guys... where are we? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: South Carolina Moto: SV650 Interstate, CX500 rat-bobber, whatever else runs. Posts: 784	Ah yes, changing the oil 2007 Mazda 3 5-door (2.3L). There is a plastic shroud under the engine. It has a cute, oil-filter-sized hole in it. The hole is about six inches away from the actual filter. So, you need to remove 4 of those stupid center-button clips and, IIRC, 8 bolts to remove the underpan, so you can use an Allen wrench to open the filter housing drain, then a specific oil filter wrench to remove the housing. Then take Mr. Dremel and cut a big ghetto-ass hole in the shroud, so you don't have to dick with it next time. Which, i guess, is why the owner's manual does not give instructions on changing the oil, and just says to take it to the dealer. __________________ Considering Verizon Business service? Perhaps you'd like to consider a nice drain cleaner enema instead?

08-10-2009, 02:58 PM	#12
BobTheBiker too much time on my hands Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: the northern district of god damn Moto: 01 ZX6R, looking for more now. Posts: 1,802	I knew I wasnt the only sumbitch that asked these questions. graned there ARE a few cars I'm not annoyed by, like my S10 which is but it isnt hard to work on.

08-10-2009, 03:30 PM	#13
Krypt Keeper Kneedragger Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: VA Moto: CBR1100XX, Daytona 600 Posts: 174	My charger is pretty simple for oil changes. Too bad they didn't think about the crappy lame front suspension that isn't worth $5, yet wanna charge you over $1200 to do the balljoints YOURSELF. That is not taking it to the dealer. Wifes van is nice to work on. Each oil change makes me wanna trade it in. The oil filter sits above the frame and is a real pain to get to, and all the oil that drains down on the frame and pours like a black/brown waterfall everywhere makes me want to dickpunch some engineer. I been turning wrenchs since I was 12. I prefer to do all my own work, as I have worked in shops and see how half assed they are.

08-12-2009, 12:37 AM	#19
BobTheBiker too much time on my hands Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: the northern district of god damn Moto: 01 ZX6R, looking for more now. Posts: 1,802	My newest complaint: insufficient firewall space for motor/tranny install into my truck. I imagine with the V6 it'd be much harder, but I"m never using that colossal piece of shit so I could give a damn. But puttng the motor in, you have to fight a very limited engine space with the gearbox on it. its a bit of a pain in my ass. least its DONE.